Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in particular)

[Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>]

Hi, Jake,

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:52 AM Holland, Jake <[e-mail]> wrote:

> Hi Spencer,
>
>
>
> mops is pretty clearly the wrong discussion venue :) (moved to bcc, so
> reply if you’d like to be on the thread...)
>

Good idea (and I wish I'd thought of trimming the cc: list earlier - or at
least intentionally removing WISH and AVTCORE!)

Because I agree that MOPS is not the right home (and Kyle and Leslie can
override me on that), I added them back as bcc:, just because I'm drawing
conclusions about your answer. No need to annoy them further.

 Thus far mboned has been my idea of the closest match, but I think
> draft-krose-multicast-security gets a little hard to argue it’s in scope.
>
>
>
> And really, I think AMBI and to a lesser extent DORMS is in the same
> boat.  Although we got some early advice it could be done in mboned with
> just some review from the security area due to not using any novel crypto
> and the general approach being a well-established authentication strategy,
> it does touch on some security questions that are kind of a stretch for
> mboned, especially when we try to consider it in a web security
> requirements.  And even more so if we want to bring back ALTA at some point
> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krose-mboned-alta/).
>
>
>
> Previously there has been a much heavier routing area overlap than
> security area overlap in mboned, and you’d have to look back to msec (and
> maybe some rmt) to have a closer match in membership.  And a lot of the
> people who might be interested in discussing multicast’s security
> implications in a web security context might reasonably be much less
> interested in some of the other mboned docs, and vice versa...
>
>
>
> I thought the best approach would probably be “reopen msec”.  Last time we
> took that to secdispatch (with alta, maybe at 106 or so?) they said to come
> back with more people, so that’s what I was trying to do for November, if
> webtransport didn’t want us.
>

The more we chat about homes for discussion (and especially coordination),
the more I'm thinking that requesting a new mailing list, where interested
people can work to coordinate at least two or three moving pieces that span
multiple areas, is the right thing to do - not for any solutions work, but
just to make sure that you (and the rest of us) can make sure that we
haven't forgotten or overlooked anything that's necessary for success.

I THINK you're talking about work that is of interest in SEC and ART (and
W3C), and relying on expertise from RTG, OPS, and maybe even INT and TSV,
so it should be pretty easy to find an AD to approve a request for a non-WG
IETF mailing list. 😜

If that sounds like a plan to you, the procedure for that request is at
https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/nonwglist-guidelines/ (and you'll need to
pick "an appropriate AD", so talking to your pick first is usually a good
thing). You can also bikeshed on the name of the mailing list privately
with your AD.

If you want to look at an example, the most recent non-WG mailing list is
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e2ee, I believe. The usual things
that trip requesters up (in my experience) was not providing both a
summary, and a bit more detailed description, and not providing at least
one proposed administrator.

Finally - I'm not sure what I've actually said to you about this, but I'm
glad you're doing this work, and even more glad that you're bringing it to
the IETF. Obviously, it matters to the Internet.

Best,

Spencer

 Best,
>
> Jake
>
>
>
> *From: *Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>
> *Date: *Fri,2021-07-30 at 7:10 AM
> *To: *Kyle Rose <[e-mail]>
> *Cc: *"Holland, Jake" <[e-mail]>, "[e-mail]" <
> [e-mail]>
> *Subject: *Re: [Mops] FW: Multicast for the Web (and WebTransport in
> particular)
>
>
>
> Hi, Kyle,
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 8:58 AM Kyle Rose <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Given the existence of the new W3C multicast community group, one
> important consideration at this early stage of work is to make sure we
> develop a consistent, coherent vision. I would be in favor of a single
> mailing list until/unless we get to a point where responsibility can be
> assigned to groups working independently.
>
>
>
> Makes sense to me, even if it's only used for coordination, and all of
> the technical work goes somewhere else.
>
>
>
> Do you and/or Jake have thoughts about whether that needs to be a new
> mailing list, or whether something that already exists is fit for purpose?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>
> Kyle
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 9:41 AM Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> [e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi, Jake,
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 4:59 PM Holland, Jake <[e-mail]> wrote:
>
> Hi Spencer,
>
> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <[e-mail]>
> > Date: Thu,2021-07-29 at 12:36 PM
> >
> > This was a very interesting side meeting.
>
> Thanks!
>
> > Could I ask where you expect discussion to happen, and
> > where the notes would be posted?
>
> I was thinking I'd send a follow-up message to mops and
> webtransport with a summary and links to notes and the video
> once it's posted (there may be a slight delay).
>
> If we establish an IETF mailing list or venue, I guess I’ll
> probably also send one more follow-up message to mops,
> webtransport, mboned, and possibly ietf to invite interested
> parties to join, unless I get different guidance.
>
> If you want to comment on the IETF drafts or stay in an IETF
> context for this, there are several relevant drafts that have
> been adopted in mboned, where comment would be very welcome:
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mboned__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xv7u3NBM$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-dorms/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xgA4v7bE$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-cbacc/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2x_D09FJ4$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-ambi/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xcQ6xheg$>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mboned-mnat/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xiOdIYdA$>
>
> (NB: I'll also be presenting on these in the mboned meeting
> tomorrow.)
>
> If you want to get involved in the overall project including
> the web-specific aspect of it or to discuss other topics that
> might be tangential to mboned, I'd also encourage joining the
> W3C list:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xsNtErYE$>
>
> If you're able to participate in W3C, that group is meeting monthly
> on first Wednesdays, with the next scheduled meeting on August
> 4th at 7:30am Pacific time (2:30pm UTC).  The details are here:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multicast/2021Jul/0004.html__;!!GjvTz_vk!CssogoPpbhVP1G6MyVypmxoKx6Ub2f44l_L9KXdVt4a9KyZvYUL3Uh2xUZBGgWo$>
>
> Best regards,
> Jake
>
>
>
> This is all very helpful! Thanks for the quick response.
>
>
>
> Do you think a mailing list would be useful for coordinating things among
> various venues? If so, please let me know - I know how to request that.
>
>
>
> It sounds like you may not need a dedicated venue before IETF 112, but if
> you decide that you do, please let me know - I'd love to help with that too.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
> --
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>
>