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no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: Martin Duke , MOQ Mailing List X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BMoq=5D_Re=3A_Monday=27s_agenda_is_ready?= List-Id: Media over QUIC Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000a88ccd06507345e1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Mo. Do you have an application that uses subgroup IDs with specific semantic values that would break if this change were adopted? Can you explain how it works? Thanks -Alan On Mon, Apr 27, 2026 at 7:43=E2=80=AFAM Mo Zanaty (mzanaty) wrote: > 1608 is a major change to the core data model that makes subgroups > semantically meaningless, as they would encode transport irregularities > that destroy the app=E2=80=99s semantic meaning. A primary driver for ado= pting > subgroups was video with scalable >=20 > 1608 is a major change to the core data model that makes subgroups > semantically meaningless, as they would encode transport irregularities > that destroy the app=E2=80=99s semantic meaning. A primary driver for ado= pting > subgroups was video with scalable layers where the subgroup ID identified > the layer. 1608 essentially removes subgroup ID, so there is no way to > identify layers using MOQT alone. LOC originally embedded layer identifie= rs > but removed this when MOQT added subgroups. I still think this was the > right direction to have generally consistent semantics across apps at the > core MOQT level data model. > > I agree it is useful (essential in some cases) to know if an object starts > a subgroup. This can be indicated in the subgroup header using different > type values for start of subgroup vs continued subgroup. IMO, that is a > much better solution than changing the core data model. > > Thanks, > Mo > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Alan Frindell > *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2026 9:26:30 PM > *To:* Martin Duke > *Cc:* MOQ Mailing List > *Subject:* [Moq] Re: Monday's agenda is ready > > The slides are posted here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2026-moq-14/materials/slides= -interim-2026-moq-14-sessa-moqt-prs-and-issues-00 > > > We're still waiting on some content so look for an update, or new slides > from Victor on his Delivery Timeout proposal and Required Request ID > Alternate. > > Reading up on the issues/slides in advance will help us maximize our > discussion time. > > #1608 Make Subgroup ID identical to first Object Id in the Subgroup > > #1519/#1603 Required Request ID > > #1613 Add MAX_REQUEST_UPDATES setup option and TOO_MANY_REQUEST_UPDATES > error > > #1605 Split DELIVERY_TIMEOUT into two types of timeout > > Was it a mistake to require negotiation for unknown params > > ? > > Time Permitting > > - Going through open Joining FETCH Dissent issues. Slides are there. > > Thanks > > -Alan > > On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 7:42=E2=80=AFPM Martin Duke > wrote: > > You can find it on datatracker. It's all editor time. Alan, please post > issue slides. =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D= =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D > =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D > =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D > =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D > =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D > You can find it on datatracker. It's all editor time. > > Alan, please post issue slides. > -- > Moq mailing list -- moq@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to moq-leave@ietf.org > > --000000000000a88ccd06507345e1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tha= nks Mo.=C2=A0 Do you have an application that uses subgroup IDs with specif= ic semantic values that would break if this change were adopted?=C2=A0 Can = you explain how it works?

Thanks

-Alan
=
On Mon, Apr 27, 2026 at 7:43=E2=80=AFAM Mo Zanaty (mzanaty)= <mzanaty=3D40cisco.com@dm= arc.ietf.org> wrote:
1608 is a major change to the core data model that makes subgroups semantic= ally meaningless, as they would encode transport irregularities that destro= y the app=E2=80=99s semantic meaning. A primary driver for adopting subgrou= ps was video with scalable
1608 is a major change to the core data model that makes subgroups semantic= ally meaningless, as they would encode transport irregularities that destro= y the app=E2=80=99s semantic meaning. A primary driver for adopting subgrou= ps was video with scalable layers where the subgroup ID identified the layer. 1608 essentially removes subgroup ID= , so there is no way to identify layers using MOQT alone. LOC originally em= bedded layer identifiers but removed this when MOQT added subgroups. I stil= l think this was the right direction to have generally consistent semantics across apps at the core MOQT level = data model.

I agree it is useful (essential in some cases) to know if an object starts = a subgroup. This can be indicated in the subgroup header using different ty= pe values for start of subgroup vs continued subgroup. IMO, that is a much = better solution than changing the core data model.=C2=A0

Thanks,
Mo


From: = Alan Frindell <afrind=3D40meta.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2026 9:26:30 PM
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: MOQ Mailing List <moq@ietf.org>
Subject: [Moq] Re: Monday's agenda is ready
=C2=A0

We're still waiting on some content so l= ook for an update, or new slides from Victor on his Delivery Timeout propos= al and Required Request ID Alternate.

Reading up on the issues/slides in advance will help us maximize our discus= sion time.

#1608 Make Subgroup ID identical to first Ob= ject Id in the Subgroup

#1519/#1603 Required Request ID

#1613 Add MAX_REQUEST_UPDATES setup option and TOO_MANY_REQUEST_UPDATES err= or

#1605 Split DELIVERY_TIMEOUT into two types of timeout

Was it a mistake to require negotiation for unknown params?=C2=A0

Time Permitting

=C2=A0- Going through open Joining FETCH Dissent issues.=C2=A0 Slides are t= here.

Thanks

-Alan

On Wed, Apr 22, 2026 at 7:42=E2=80=AFPM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gm= ail.com> wrote:
You can find it on datatracker. It's all editor time. Alan, please post= issue slides. =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D = =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2= =80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80= =8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D =E2=80=8D
You can find it on datatracker. It's all editor time.

Alan, please post issue slides.
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