Re: [mpls-tp] R: [mpls] MPLS WG slides from CMCC

[Alexander Vainshtein <[e-mail]>]

Italo,
One of the issues I've raised in Maastricht was lack of support for the trace route function that is explicitly required in 5860 (please see the minutes of the MPLS WG session at http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/78/minutes/mpls.txt, look for discussion of draft-fang-mpls-tp-oam-considerations). 

AFAIK, this issue has never been resolved. Or did I miss something?

Regards,
     Sasha

-----Original Message-----
From: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of BUSI, ITALO (ITALO)
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 10:28 AM
To: Christopher LILJENSTOLPE; Huub van Helvoort
Cc: [e-mail]; Ad hoc MPLS-TP; [e-mail]
Subject: [mpls-tp] R: [mpls] MPLS WG slides from CMCC

Chris,

> However, there
> are outstanding concerns on this draft on multiple levels
> (interoperability with the  "standard" MPLS stack, a number of issues
> raised in various reviews, including a routing area review, etc.).

Could you please send a list of these issues?

I do not recall to have seen any on the mpls-tp mailing list.

Thanks, Italo

> -----Messaggio originale-----
> Da: [e-mail] [mailto:[e-mail]] Per conto di
> Christopher LILJENSTOLPE
> Inviato: mercoledì 15 dicembre 2010 6.16
> A: Huub van Helvoort
> Cc: [e-mail]; Ad hoc MPLS-TP; [e-mail]
> Oggetto: Re: [mpls] [mpls-tp] MPLS WG slides from CMCC
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> 
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> Comments in line...
> On 14Dec2010, at 21.40, Huub van Helvoort wrote:
> 
> > Hej Christopher,
> >
> > Please see in-line [hvh]
> >
> >> I don't believe I do. The requirements document just that, requirements,
> <snip>
> >> document yet.
> >
> > [hvh] one of the reasons for *not* accepting it as WG draft was that
> > there were too many co-authors.
> >
> >> Therefore, basing your technology around it is a dice roll. I assume
> <snip>
> >>
> >> path once or twice myself).
> >
> > [hvh] another reason for the selection was the availability of
> > a solution.
> 
> To be sure, this is a "emotional" issue for both sides.  However, there
> are outstanding concerns on this draft on multiple levels
> (interoperability with the  "standard" MPLS stack, a number of issues
> raised in various reviews, including a routing area review, etc.).  I also
> am personally concerned about re-use of existing technology and standards,
> where possible.  I believe I am not the only one with those concerns (the
> amount of protocols running around in the network today is a nightmare, I
> would prefer not to add to that stack if I don't have to).  I am also
> concerned about the propagation of two completely separate approaches to
> answer 5860 that could both be considered "MPLS-TP OAM" solutions.
> Interoperation would become "interesting"
> 
> >
> >> However, if CMCC (or any other carrier) have decided to deploy draft-
> bhh
> >> based on an understanding that draft-bhh WOULD become a standard, that
> >> would be an unfortunate misunderstanding.
> >
> > [hvh] the fact that they are really interested in this solution is
> > proven by the standardisation of this solution in CCSA.
> 
> This is a real concern.  There is a reason why network standards (and
> their organizations) are International in scope (i.e. the ITU and IETF).
> In the days of very little cross-border connectivity, we could get away
> with "national" or "regional" standards.  However, even in those days,
> they caused issues.  How many people remember the fun of T1/E1/J1 or the
> early days of SONET/SDH interworking?  How about the joys of the North
> American GSM frequencies vs. the ROW?  Even with those fairly constrained
> interoperation issues, there was damage done to the market, and customers
> were inconvenienced (witness the slow uptake of GSM in the NA market and
> paucity of GSM handsets for same, for example).
> 
> More lately, there have been attempts to have national standards for WiMAX,
> WiFi encryption, and 3G networks.  All of us who travelled to the last
> IETF from other locations with 3G phones had the experience of a national
> 3G standard network (and having to manually set phones to other,
> international standard, networks).  The other examples here have pretty
> much died away.
> 
> Any SDO should have the ability to act on it's own, for the best interest
> of it's constituents.  However, an SDO doing so, in a space that is
> recognized as being the domain of another SDO does so at a risk, and
> should do so fully understanding that risk/reward calculation.
> 
> I am not competent to speak to the CCSA decision, but I am sure they made
> that decision fully cogent of the ongoing discussion in the IETF regarding
> these drafts.  However, the fact that they have elected to standardize on
> a individual contribution to the IETF should not put a burden or
> expectation on the IETF to then ratify that individual contribution,
> outside of the normal IETF process.
> 
> To present the argument as you have, may, if anything, increase resistance
> to the draft in question, if for no other reason than not wishing to set a
> precedent.
> 
> >
> > [hvh] because service providers outside of China also want to
> > use this solution they would like to make it an international
> > standard.
> 
> As above
> >
> >> It is my understanding that
> >> the working group has never guaranteed that draft-bhh would become a
> >> STANDARD, and if that had been signaled, then I would expect draft-bhh
> >> to be a working-group draft, at least. I am not saying that it won't
> >> become a standard, I'm just saying that one (or a few) operators
> >
> > [hvh] it is not a few anymore.
> >
> >> deciding to deploy something does not automatically grant it a quick
> >> path to standardization in the IETF, especially if other operators have
> >> a differing opinion of that draft proposal.
> >
> > [hvh] also one, or a few.
> 
> On these two, we can count noses (or hums), but doing so on the list and
> in the room multiple times in the past has not materially changed the
> equation.
> 
> >
> > M.v.h. Huub.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Christopher
> 
> >
> > ============
> >> On 14Dec2010, at 18.51, Huub van Helvoort wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Chris,
> >>>
> >>> You wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> My concern here is that the requirements are based on a DRAFT.
> >>>
> >>> I think you have the order wrong.
> >>> The MPLS-TP OAM requirements are in RFC5860:
> >>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5860
> >>>
> >>> draft-bhh-MPLS-TP-OAM-Y1731 is a solution based on RFC5860.
> >>>
> >>>> Not that
> >>>> that doesn't happen from time to time, but that does not mean that
> the
> >>>> IETF must then standardize that DRAFT. Someone writing a spec based
> on
> >>>> DRAFTs are taking an (educated) gamble that that DRAFT will be
> >>>> standardized and supported by other vendors.
> >>>
> >>> draft-bhh-MPLS-TP-OAM-Y1731 provides a set of tools that fits in
> >>> a larger toolbox with multiple tools.
> >>>
> >>>> In short, the decision, is, of course, the prerogative of the
> purchaser,
> >>>
> >>> The service provider can pick a selection of the tools for
> >>> use in his network by enabling the ones he needs.
> >>> CMCC and many other service providers have a preference for
> >>> the tools provided by draft-bhh-MPLS-TP-OAM-Y1731.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards, Huub.
> >>>
> >>> ===================
> >>>> On 11Nov2010, at 18.52, Larry wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Dear Huub:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes!
> >>>>> Actually, China Mobile has introduced 38,000 PTN equipments based on
> >>>>> pre-standard G.8114 in 2009. China Mobile will introduce more than
> >>>>> 110,000 PTN equipments based on draft-bhh-MPLS-TP-OAM-Y1731 in 2010.
> >>>>> We will upgrade G.8114 to Y.1731 based OAM by the end of this year.
> >>>>> Because Draft-bhh and relevant CCSA standard are based on Y.1731, so
> I
> >>>>> use Y.1731 to present all of them.
> >>>>> Thank you!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Han Li
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> *************************************************************************
> >>>>> Han Li, Ph.D
> >>>>> China Mobile Research Institute
> >>>>> Unit 2, 28 Xuanwumenxi Ave, Xuanwu District, Beijing 100053, China
> >>>>> Fax: [phone]
> >>>>> MOBILE: [phone]
> >>>>>
> *************************************************************************
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- 10年11月11日，周四, Huub van Helvoort <[e-mail]
> >>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>> 写道：
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> 发件人: Huub van Helvoort <[e-mail]
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>> 主题: Re: [mpls-tp] [mpls] MPLS WG slides from CMCC
> >>>>>> 收件人: [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> 抄送: "'lihan'" <[e-mail]
> <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>, "Ad hoc MPLS-TP"
> >>>>>> <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>,
> >>>>>> "[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>" <[e-mail] <mailto:mpls-
> [e-mail]>
> >>>>>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
> >>>>>> 日期: 2010年11月11日,周四,下午3:21
> >>>>>> Li Han, 你好！
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you very much for this informative information.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-tp/attachment/wiki/meeting-
> notes/CMCC%20implementation%20and%20consideration%20for%20MPLS-TP-01.pdf
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There are links from the meetings materials page
> >>>>>>> (http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-tp/wiki/meeting-notes)
> >>>>>> and from the wiki
> >>>>>>> home page (http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/misc/mpls-tp/)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I have a question about slide 3:
> >>>>>> the last bullet states: OAM: "based on Y.1731 and pre-
> >>>>>> standard G.8114"
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> By "based on Y.1731" do you refer to
> >>>>>> draft-bhh-mpls-tp-oam-y1731
> >>>>>> and the CCSA standard that will soon be published?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you, Huub.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *****************************************************************
> >                      我爱外点一七三一
> >
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNCE8UAAoJEGmx2Mt/+Iw/fs4H/0cILw+AkS69D1jfWpx2fmK1
> LAP62cNtSujmyH+IZQJkEP7tmVJSmZxFfeSetcGa8Ww+BRcUaYTth69KxoEfYoea
> n/5CXdOI7n0xy/VWRvZh7iT8d6OghjJCcI9eZsD/MrnkR3RAvKzBAiQEoZb0HPVF
> JGzAFwCLtj8q3czwVVQcK3B0ZkRxKr5T8U8WIXRVgXJFXG4l8YVoSXaBvFH9muk7
> etmPOZj0WnlgoaIKnfRg2yPxImMRKQwojv8xopR+wFBbS8uuZdXGWGZ1Q41Hl6dz
> BrJPaAFPAc6lDY/lfbX8Tndq+gWwXVykB1gjfO+tr7nvEJ3Djpze3Pw0SJxkEG0=
> =48WW
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> _______________________________________________
> mpls mailing list
> [e-mail]
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
_______________________________________________
mpls-tp mailing list
[e-mail]
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls-tp