[mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt

Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu> Mon, 02 September 2024 08:57 UTC

Return-Path: <loa@pi.nu>
X-Original-To: mpls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mpls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4743AC14F736 for <mpls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.906
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.906 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, URIBL_DBL_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, URIBL_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qiF-UBhbDjVY for <mpls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from srv.pi.nu (srv.pi.nu [46.246.39.30]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54F35C14F5E8 for <mpls@ietf.org>; Mon, 2 Sep 2024 01:56:55 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <85b392b8-8968-4ebd-ad37-af09a3ee3b8b@pi.nu>
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 16:56:48 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: adrian@olddog.co.uk, 'Stewart Bryant' <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, 'Tony Li' <tony.li@tony.li>
References: <C46E4867-89A7-4AAA-8C5F-515B5AA0FEFF@tony.li> <9A9F1679-120D-4E40-A34F-0476513BE2E5@gmail.com> <b4a957c6-b60f-487e-9519-656fcf86b85c@pi.nu> <03d101dafd10$fdeaab90$f9c002b0$@olddog.co.uk>
Content-Language: sv, en-GB
From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
In-Reply-To: <03d101dafd10$fdeaab90$f9c002b0$@olddog.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format="flowed"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID-Hash: 6BKLYPA2YTL7LNOMGERGIA2YSY6VX2KB
X-Message-ID-Hash: 6BKLYPA2YTL7LNOMGERGIA2YSY6VX2KB
X-MailFrom: loa@pi.nu
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-mpls.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: 'mpls' <mpls@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Subject: [mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG <mpls.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/DYV5IAeiGSNAJtEy-QKOjaky37w>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mpls>
List-Help: <mailto:mpls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:mpls-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:mpls-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:mpls-leave@ietf.org>

Adrian,

inlline.

Den 02/09/2024 kl. 16:20, skrev Adrian Farrel:
> How do you measure?
> Size : 2^20 bits available in EL and LSE-C
> Place in stack : No restriction on either
> Repetition in stack : No restriction on either
>
> A

OK, I was struggling  before, this does not make it better :(.

If all our methods are "equal", why do we struggle to develop
new methods?

One question I really can't keep from asking. Hope someone can
lay it to rest.

In hashing the stack a stack with 6 non-SPL labels gives me entropy
based on 6 x 2^20 bits, to give me entropy based on the same number of 
bit with EL/ELI I need 12 LSEs, right?

AS for an MNA based method you can use 20 bits in the LSE Format C and
another 30 in an LSE Format D, right

/Loa
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
> Sent: 02 September 2024 09:11
> To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>; Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
> Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
> Subject: [mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
>
> Stewart and Tony,
>
> This might be classified as naive questions :).
>
> Den 02/09/2024 kl. 15:15, skrev Stewart Bryant:
>> Hi Tony
>>
>> I am struggling to see whether this has a sufficient advantage over
>> the existing EL/ELI mechanism to justify us recommending it existence.
>>
>> It is obvious that this can be done, and it saves an LSE, but is that
>> sufficient justification for the complexity introduced by having two
>> mechanisms that of necessity need to co-exist?
>>
>> We also need to understand what happens in a legacy routers that are
>> looking for EL/ELI and older routers that just hash the stack. I think
>> they just provide less (no?) entropy.
> Is there a scientific way of calculating "how much" entropy the
> different  generate?
>
> Is more entropy always better?
>
> What are the factors that determine how much entropy you need?
>
> /Loa
>
>
>> I imagine this ends with routers needing to parse for both types of
>> entropy which is not a great position to be in.
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Stewart
>>
>>> On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:26 PM, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li> wrote:
>>>
>>>  [WG chair hat: off]
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> This update addresses comments from Adrian Farrel as part of the WG
>>> adoption process.
>>>
>>> Comments and corrections are most welcome.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>
>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>
>>>> *From: *"internet-drafts at ietf.org" <mailforwards@cloudmails.net>
>>>> *Subject: **New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt*
>>>> *Date: *August 30, 2024 at 9:24:05 AM PDT
>>>> *To: *"John Drake" <je_drake@yahoo.com>, "Tony Li" <tony.li@tony.li>
>>>> *Reply-To: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> A new version of Internet-Draft draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt has
>>>> been
>>>> successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>
>>>> Name:     draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy
>>>> Revision: 03
>>>> Title:    MPLS Network Action for Entropy
>>>> Date:     2024-08-28
>>>> Group:    Individual Submission
>>>> Pages:    5
>>>> URL:
>>>>       https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
>>>> Status:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy/
>>>> HTMLized:
>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy
>>>> Diff:
>>>>      https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>>
>>>>    Load balancing is a powerful tool for engineering traffic across a
>>>>    network and has been successfully used in MPLS as described in RFC
>>>>    6790, "The Use of Entropy Labels in MPLS Forwarding".  With the
>>>>    emergence of MPLS Network Actions (MNA), there is signficant benefit
>>>>    in being able to invoke the same load balancing capabilities within
>>>>    the more general MNA infrastructure.
>>>>
>>>>    This document describes a network action for entropy to be used in
>>>>    conjunction with "MPLS Network Action (MNA) Sub-Stack Solution".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>>
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org

-- 
Loa Andersson
Senior MPLS Expert
Bronze Dragon Consulting
loa@pi.nu
loa.pi.nu.@gmail.com