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Personally, I think that any PSD-based solution can reliably work only for I2E scope. Am I missing something? Regards, Greg On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 5:38=E2=80=AFPM Tianran Zhou wrote: > Hi Greg, > > > > I think the IOAM pre-allocated tracing mode can mitigate the MSD issue. > > How about we only apply this mode in MNA? > > > > Tianran > > > > *From:* Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, June 27, 2024 7:41 AM > *To:* Haoyu Song > *Cc:* mpls ; draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org > *Subject:* [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for > draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt > > > > Hi Haoyu, > > I find the argument "We don't care about your problem" unusual for an > environment striving to reach, although rough, consensus nevertheless. MS= D > is a well-known network constraint that, I suspect, would not go away ver= y > soon (similar to using the label stack to generate entropy in the ECMP > environment). MSD is real, and we must consider it when making design > decisions. I don't think that operators will look favorably at a technolo= gy > that requires the forklift upgrade of a network. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Haoyu Song > wrote: > > Greg, > > A feature having severe performance impact to one device doesn=E2=80=99t > necessarily mean it has the same issue to others=E2=80=99 devices. Also, = not > everyone must implement it. It=E2=80=99s all about user=E2=80=99s prefere= nce, capability, > and choice. > > > > Best, > > Haoyu > > *From:* Greg Mirsky > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 26, 2024 1:06 PM > *To:* Haoyu Song > *Cc:* Joel Halpern ; Loa Andersson ; mpls > ; draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for > draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt > > > > Hi Haoyu, > > I am surprised that the proponents of PSD-based solution use limited > impact on the MPLS label stack depth as an argument while seemingly > ignoring the MSD issue that, in my opinion, might have more severe impact > on degrading the forwarding performance of the already deployed networkin= g > devices. > > > > Regards, > > Greg > > > > On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 12:59=E2=80=AFPM Haoyu Song > wrote: > > Hi Joel, > > I think it's important to support IOAM DEX as specified in RFC9326. I > don't think it can still be called IOAM DEX if the header format is chang= ed > in order to fit it in ISD. As Rakesh has explained, the header itself is > extensible, and the header size is large with options. Both these make it > unsuitable for ISD. > > Best, > Haoyu > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joel Halpern > Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 12:35 PM > To: Loa Andersson ; mpls ; > draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org > Subject: [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for > draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt > > Loa, you list three bullet points with three different results. However, > what has been shown so far seems to correspond to your first case, which > you state does not justify two solutions. Adopting a post-stack data > solution before we decide we are in case three, or in case 2 and feel the > tradeoff is right, seems premature. It may well be that the ps draft is > the right starting point once we have agreed on the problems to be solved= . > Which is why I am trying to understand the motivations for Rakesh' iOAM d= ex > draft. (I do think we need to support IOAM DEX.) > > Yours, > > Joel > > On 6/26/2024 3:30 PM, Loa Andersson wrote: > > Jags, authors, chairs, working group, > > > > > > I support making draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr a working group document. > > > > It has repeatedly been said by those who want ISD-solutions that > > PSD-solutions ar not needed. > > > > I think this is a fundamentally flawed way of asking the question. > > > > - if we have a choice between two solutions and they are equally good > > for all cases, then it makes sense to try to find consensus for > > adopting > > one of the solutions > > - if we have a choice between two solutions there both solutions "can > > do" all > > cases, but there one is significantly better for one set of cases > > and the > > other is significantly better for the remaining cases, we should > > cases we > > should seriously consider going for two solutions. > > - if we we have the a choice between two solutions there one can solve > > part of > > the cases and the other the remaining cases, the we need to go for tw= o > > solutions. > > > > /Loa > > > > > > Den 2024-06-26 kl. 04:50, skrev Jaganbabu Rajamanickam (jrajaman): > >> > >> Hello Chairs, > >> > >> We would like to request WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr= . > >> > >> Updated the draft with the initial review comments and the latest > >> MNA header format. > >> > >> Welcome your review comments and suggestions. > >> > >> Thanx, > >> > >> Jags > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org > >> To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org > _______________________________________________ > mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org > > --000000000000bc252d061bd47fda Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Tianran,
can you help me understanding how the IOAM= Preallocated Trace Option-Type mitigates the MSD constraint? Personally, I= think that any PSD-based solution can reliably work only for I2E scope. Am= I missing something?

Regards,
Greg

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 5:38=E2=80=AFPM Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> wrote:

Hi Greg,

=C2=A0

I think the IOAM pre-allocated tracing mode = can mitigate the MSD issue.

How about we only apply this mode in MNA?=

=C2=A0

Tianran

=C2=A0

From: Greg Mirsky [mailto:gregimirsky@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2024 7:41 AM
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
Cc: mpls <mpls= @ietf.org>; draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org
Subject: [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-h= dr-03.txt

=C2=A0

Hi Haoyu,

I find the argument "We don't care about yo= ur problem" unusual for an environment striving to reach, although rou= gh, consensus nevertheless. MSD is a well-known network constraint that, I = suspect, would not go away very soon (similar to using the label stack to generate entropy in the ECMP environment). MSD is= real, and we must consider it when making design decisions. I don't th= ink that operators will look favorably at a technology that requires the fo= rklift upgrade of a network.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 4:31=E2=80=AFPM Haoyu Song &= lt;haoyu.song= @futurewei.com> wrote:

Greg,

A feature having severe performance impact to one de= vice doesn=E2=80=99t necessarily mean it has the same issue to others=E2=80= =99 devices. Also, not everyone must implement it. It=E2=80=99s all about user=E2=80=99s preference, capability, and choice. =C2=A0=C2=A0<= /u>

=C2=A0

Best,

Haoyu

From: Greg Mirsky <gregimirsky@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 1:06 PM
To: Haoyu Song <haoyu.song@futurewei.com>
Cc: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>; mpls <mpls@ietf.org>; dr= aft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-m= na-hdr-03.txt

=C2=A0

Hi Haoyu,

I am surprised that the proponents of PSD-based solu= tion use limited impact on the MPLS label stack depth as an argument while = seemingly ignoring the MSD issue that, in my opinion, might have more severe impact on degrading the forwarding performance of t= he already deployed networking devices.

=C2=A0

Regards,

Greg

=C2=A0

On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 12:59=E2=80=AFPM Haoyu Song = <haoyu.son= g@futurewei.com> wrote:

Hi Joel,

I think it's important to support IOAM DEX as specified in RFC9326. I d= on't think it can still be called IOAM DEX if the header format is chan= ged in order to fit it in ISD.=C2=A0 As Rakesh has explained, the header it= self is extensible, and the header size is large with options. Both these make it unsuitable for ISD.

Best,
Haoyu

-----Original Message-----
From: Joel Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2024 12:35 PM
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi= .nu>; mpls <mp= ls@ietf.org>; dr= aft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr@ietf.org
Subject: [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.t= xt

Loa, you list three bullet points with three different results. However, wh= at has been shown so far seems to correspond to your first case, which you = state does not justify two solutions. Adopting a post-stack data solution b= efore we decide we are in case three, or in case 2 and feel the tradeoff is right, seems premature.=C2=A0=C2=A0 = It may well be that the ps draft is the right starting point once we have a= greed on the problems to be solved. Which is why I am trying to understand = the motivations for Rakesh' iOAM dex draft.=C2=A0 (I do think we need to support IOAM DEX.)

Yours,

Joel

On 6/26/2024 3:30 PM, Loa Andersson wrote:
> Jags, authors, chairs, working group,
>
>
> I support making draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr a working group document.<= br> >
> It has repeatedly been said by those who want ISD-solutions that
> PSD-solutions ar not needed.
>
> I think this is a fundamentally flawed way of asking the question.
>
> - if we have a choice between two solutions and they are equally good<= br> > =C2=A0 for all cases, then it makes sense to try to find consensus for=
> adopting
> =C2=A0 one of the solutions
> - if we have a choice between two solutions there both solutions "= ;can
> do" all
> =C2=A0 cases, but there one is significantly better for one set of cas= es
> and the
> =C2=A0 other is significantly better for the remaining cases, we shoul= d
> cases we
> =C2=A0=C2=A0 should seriously consider going for two solutions.
> - if we we have the a choice between two solutions there one can solve=
> part of
> =C2=A0 the cases and the other the remaining cases, the we need to go = for two
> =C2=A0 solutions.
>
> /Loa
>
>
> Den 2024-06-26 kl. 04:50, skrev Jaganbabu Rajamanickam (jrajaman):
>>
>> Hello Chairs,
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 We would like to request WG adoption for draft-jags-m= pls-ps-mna-hdr.
>>
>> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Updated the draft with the initial review comments an= d the latest
>> MNA header format.
>>
>> =C2=A0 Welcome your review comments and suggestions.
>>
>> Thanx,
>>
>> Jags
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> mpls mailing list -- mpls@ietf.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org
>

_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list -- mpl= s@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org
_______________________________________________
mpls mailing list -- mpl= s@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to mpls-leave@ietf.org

--000000000000bc252d061bd47fda--