[mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt

[Joel Halpern <[e-mail]>]

You assert that there are multiple accepted use cases where PSD is 
advantageous over ISD.  Putting aside the iOAM DEX case that we are 
debating, I have not seen a single use case where the WG agrees that PSD 
is advantageous over ISD.  My understanding is that the chairs said that 
PSD work would be deferred until there were such agreed use cases.

Yours,

Joel

On 6/26/2024 3:47 PM, Haoyu Song wrote:
>
> Hi Greg,
>
> You said "I think that the question is Which are MNA use cases that 
> cannot be supported using ISD MNA solution?”
>
> I think this is a wrong question to ask. A similar question is: which 
> use case can’t be supported by using PSD MNA solution?  Of cause, each 
> has its own merits and drawbacks. A use case can be done in a way 
> doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the preferred way and the only way to do 
> it. As for which way is better, it depends on many factors and could 
> be subjective sometimes. Therefore, as the protocol designer, we 
> shouldn’t make the decision for the users because we are not in their 
> shoes.
>
> While I’m not necessarily in favor of the particular PSD solution, I 
> think it has been long established that PSD is useful and necessary. 
> The old proposal has been worked on for several years by most of the 
> people here. It was turned down not because it is unneeded but because 
> some patent issues. PSD is backed by many existing use case proposals, 
> and the mechanism itself is more scalable and flexible with less 
> constraints.  Therefore, I strongly support to continue the 
> development of the PSD solution. If any solution achieves the WG 
> consensus, I’ll support it.  The complete MNA solution with both ISD 
> and PSD will offer choices to users and let market to decide which one 
> to use for each particular application.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Haoyu
>
> *From:* Greg Mirsky <[e-mail]>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 26, 2024 8:38 AM
> *To:* Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong=[e-mail]>
> *Cc:* Jaganbabu Rajamanickam (jrajaman) 
> <jrajaman=[e-mail]>; [e-mail]; mpls 
> <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
> *Subject:* [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for 
> draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt
>
> Hi Donjie,
>
> thank you for sharing your views. Please find my notes below tagged GIM>>.
>
> Regards,
>
> Greg
>
> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 7:42 AM Dongjie (Jimmy) 
> <jie.dong=[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>     Hi Rakesh and all,
>
>     I fully agree that the PSD solution could be useful for the IOAM
>     use case as described in draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases.
>
> GIM>> I think that the question is Which are MNA use cases that cannot 
> be supported using ISD MNA solution? Of course, all cases listed in 
> draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases 
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases/> can 
> be done using PSD, but does that mean that the PSD MNA solution is 
> necessary to support these cases? AFAICS, it is not, as these cases 
> can adequately and satisfactorily can be realized using the ISD MNA 
> approach.
>
>     In addition, both the requirement draft and framework draft has
>     many text about PSD, which shows PSD is an integral part of the
>     MNA solution.
>
> GIM>> I don't agree with your interpretation. "Integral", although I 
> am not a native English speaker, means that there is no MNA without a 
> PSD part. But that is clearly not the case so far as there has been no 
> case presented that cannot be realized using ISD PSD. IMHO, PSD is an 
> optional but not an integral and necessary component of MNA.
>
>     Lastly, section 5 of draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr mentions that for
>     some type of data the encoding with ISD would be inefficient, and
>     PSD can be another (more efficient?) choice.
>
> GIM>> That reference stresses that PSD is an optional approach for 
> cases that cannot be reasonably solved using ISD.
>
>     Taking the above into consideration, I would support the request
>     for WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.
>
> GIM>> Since no credible technical evidence has been presented that any 
> of the MNA cases that the MPLS WG has agreed with 
> (draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases) cannot be realized using the ISD MNA 
> solution, I cannot find any reason for considering the WG's adoption 
> of the PSD MNA mechanism.
>
>     Best regards,
>
>     Jie
>
>     *From:* Rakesh Gandhi <[e-mail]>
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, June 26, 2024 9:12 PM
>
>     *To:* Jaganbabu Rajamanickam (jrajaman)
>     <jrajaman=[e-mail]>
>     *Cc:* [e-mail]; mpls <[e-mail]>;
>     [e-mail]
>     *Subject:* [mpls] Re: Request WG adoption for
>     draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03.txt
>
>     Thanks Jags.
>
>     The PSD solution for MNA defined in draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03
>     is used for IOAM and IOAM DEX in draft-gandhi-mpls-mna-ioam-dex-01:
>
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-gandhi-mpls-mna-ioam-dex-01
>
>     IOAM and IOAM DEX use-cases for MNA are defined in
>     draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases-10:
>
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mna-usecases-10
>
>     The PSD solution is useful for IOAM and IOAM-DEX, I support the
>     request for WG adoption for draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr-03 (as
>     co-author).
>
>     P.S. I understand this email was not the WG adoption poll
>     initiated by the chairs.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Rakesh
>
>     On Tue, Jun 25, 2024 at 10:52 PM Jaganbabu Rajamanickam (jrajaman)
>     <jrajaman=[e-mail]> wrote:
>
>         Hello Chairs,
>
>            We would like to request WG adoption for
>         draft-jags-mpls-ps-mna-hdr.
>
>            Updated the draft with the initial review comments and the
>         latest MNA header format.
>
>           Welcome your review comments and suggestions.
>
>         Thanx,
>
>         Jags
>
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