[mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt

bruno.decraene@orange.com Mon, 02 September 2024 08:57 UTC

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To: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
Thread-Topic: [mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
Thread-Index: AQHa/QfrA6fyNaabKUqVkcnPUZfYwrJEKrmw
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2024 08:57:18 +0000
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References: <C46E4867-89A7-4AAA-8C5F-515B5AA0FEFF@tony.li> <9A9F1679-120D-4E40-A34F-0476513BE2E5@gmail.com>
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Subject: [mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
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I would tend to agree with Stewart.

To progress on this point, I would suggest that the document better evaluate the “signficant benefit” which is stated in the abstract.


My naïve evaluation is the following:
Assuming X% of the packets needs entropy for Load Balancing
Assuming Y% of the packets needs MNA for another reason
Assuming Z% of nodes supports mna-entropy

The gain seems to be 4 bytes*X%*Y%*Z%*Z%.
This can easily be very small even with relatively optimistic values. e.g. with respectively 50%, 10%, 50% the average gain is 0.05 byte per packet (0.4 bit per packet).
Then assuming an IMIX traffic as per [1] the dimensioning gain on links and routers seems to be 0.003% which is probably negligible for anyone.
More importantly, at decision time, Z and Y would be very small and the gain would be even smaller.
So it seems unlikely to me that anyone (vendor and operator) would choose to decide to be the first to implement. And if nobody starts, Z would never grow so the benefit would never grow.

Also, original EL took quite some time (if not too much time IMO) to be ready and largely implemented, which is especially an issue when the feature needs both the ingress and egress support and the ability to use is Z%*Z% which is (much) smaller than Z%.
More than 10 years after RFC, the BGP signaling is still not (fully) cooked (RFC, implemented).
I would rather not start again from scratch, and even reduce the implementation effort on original EL.

IOW I don’t think we need two solutions for the same problem. Especially two data planes solutions.

I’m probably missing something so clarifying the benefit in the draft would probably be useful.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Mix

Best regards,
--Bruno


From: Stewart Bryant <stewart.bryant@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, September 2, 2024 9:15 AM
To: Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li>
Cc: mpls <mpls@ietf.org>
Subject: [mpls] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt

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Hi Tony

I am struggling to see whether this has a sufficient advantage over the existing EL/ELI mechanism to justify us recommending it existence.

It is obvious that this can be done, and it saves an LSE, but is that sufficient justification for the complexity introduced by having two mechanisms that of necessity need to co-exist?

We also need to understand what happens in a legacy routers that are looking for EL/ELI and older routers that just hash the stack. I think they just provide less (no?) entropy.

I imagine this ends with routers needing to parse for both types of entropy which is not a great position to be in.

Best regards

Stewart


On 30 Aug 2024, at 5:26 PM, Tony Li <tony.li@tony.li<mailto:tony.li@tony.li>> wrote:
[WG chair hat: off]

Hi,

This update addresses comments from Adrian Farrel as part of the WG adoption process.

Comments and corrections are most welcome.

Thanks,
Tony



Begin forwarded message:

From: "internet-drafts at ietf.org" <mailforwards@cloudmails.net<mailto:mailforwards@cloudmails.net>>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
Date: August 30, 2024 at 9:24:05 AM PDT
To: "John Drake" <je_drake@yahoo.com<mailto:je_drake@yahoo.com>>, "Tony Li" <tony.li@tony.li<mailto:tony.li@tony.li>>
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>

A new version of Internet-Draft draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt has been
successfully submitted by Tony Li and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:     draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy
Revision: 03
Title:    MPLS Network Action for Entropy
Date:     2024-08-28
Group:    Individual Submission
Pages:    5
URL:      https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03.txt
Status:   https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy/
HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy
Diff:     https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=draft-li-mpls-mna-entropy-03

Abstract:

  Load balancing is a powerful tool for engineering traffic across a
  network and has been successfully used in MPLS as described in RFC
  6790, "The Use of Entropy Labels in MPLS Forwarding".  With the
  emergence of MPLS Network Actions (MNA), there is signficant benefit
  in being able to invoke the same load balancing capabilities within
  the more general MNA infrastructure.

  This document describes a network action for entropy to be used in
  conjunction with "MPLS Network Action (MNA) Sub-Stack Solution".



The IETF Secretariat


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