[mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)

[Joel Halpern <[e-mail]>]

As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, when several of us asked the 
question about how readable label depth interacts with post-stack data, 
the answer was that nodes with RLD limits could ignore PSD that was past 
their limit.  Which is fine if one has ISD for things to be processed by 
all supporting nodes.  (That distinction is represented in a bit that 
people requested during the development of the ISD proposal on the table.)

I do not understand how that solution to the RLD limits works if one has 
only PSD.

Yours,

Joel

On 9/30/2024 8:07 PM, Tianran Zhou wrote:
> Looking at the use case draft, PSD can address all use cases and 
> future proof. In this sense, there is no need to implement ISD at all.
>
> I also started a thread in the working group mailing list to 
> investigate the operators requirements. I only got one requirement on 
> noffrr. There’s rare interest on existing MNA.
>
> I can’t believe we are going to publish such paper work in a hurry.
>
> Tianran
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Sent from WeLink
> *发件人： *Joel Halpern<[e-mail]>
> *收件人： *Tianran Zhou<[e-mail]>
> *抄送： *mpls<[e-mail]>
> *主题： *Re: [mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on 
> draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)
> *时间： *2024-09-30 10:40:20
>
> Given that the PSD proposal on the table requires the ISD draft, and 
> does not require any changes to the ISD draft, I do not understand 
> your comments.  You have said you do not want any ISD solution, and 
> now you are suggesting we adopt a PSD solution that requires ISD?
>
> And it is not clear that we need a PSD solution at all.
>
> If we need a PSD solution, I expect with some clarifications and 
> modifications the jags psd draft can serve as a basis for further 
> work.  I would strongly prefer to get the ISD work done.  Then we can 
> have the debate about whethere we need PSD, and then discuss what a 
> solution should look like.
>
> Yours,
>
> Joel
>
> On 9/29/2024 10:16 PM, Tianran Zhou wrote:
>>
>> Then why not adopting that PSD proposal as the base for discussion? 
>> And find out how it will require the draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Tianran
>>
>> *From:*Joel Halpern [mailto:[e-mail]]
>> *Sent:* Monday, September 30, 2024 9:43 AM
>> *To:* Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]>
>> *Cc:* mpls <[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on 
>> draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)
>>
>> So we should hold up the ISD draft for some proposal to appear?  The 
>> one PSD proposal we have on the table does not require any changes to 
>> the mna-hdr ISD draft.    That seems to request arbitrary delay from 
>> the WG without justification.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Joel
>>
>> On 9/29/2024 9:36 PM, Tianran Zhou wrote:
>>
>>     So the next step for the WG is to work out the PSD and see how
>>     ISD and PSD can complement and be compatible.
>>
>>     It’s not the time to finalize draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr in hurry.
>>
>>     Especially when there is no hands on implementation.
>>
>>     Tianran
>>
>>     *From:*Joel Halpern [mailto:[e-mail]
>>     <mailto:[e-mail]>]
>>     *Sent:* Monday, September 30, 2024 9:06 AM
>>     *To:* Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]>
>>     <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>     *Cc:* mpls <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on
>>     draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)
>>
>>     If someone wants to put a proposal on the table for PSD that does
>>     not require ISD, they can do so.  And the WG can, if the process
>>     moves that far, consider that solution.  But, by definition, if
>>     the solution does not use ISD then it has no impact on advancing
>>     the mna-hdr draft solution for those cases which use ISD.  I
>>     still do not see the coupling you are asserting.
>>
>>     In particular, while the requirements permit such a solution,
>>     they do not mandate it.  Since we do not even have a proposal for
>>     how to do PSD without ISD, it seems really confusing to be
>>     objecting to advancing the mna-hdr draft on such a basis.
>>
>>     Yours,
>>
>>     Joel
>>
>>     On 9/29/2024 8:43 PM, Tianran Zhou wrote:
>>
>>         Hi Greg,
>>
>>         Please see below:
>>
>>         5.   Subject to the constraints in these requirements, a Network
>>
>>         Action solution MAY carry MNA information in-stack, post-stack,
>>
>>         or both in-stack and post-stack.
>>
>>         6.   Solution specifications MUST NOT require an
>>         implementation to
>>
>>         support in-stack ancillary data, unless the implementation
>>
>>         chooses to support an NA that uses in-stack ancillary data.
>>
>>         Tianran
>>
>>         *From:*Greg Mirsky [mailto:[e-mail]
>>         <mailto:[e-mail]>]
>>         *Sent:* Monday, September 30, 2024 8:24 AM
>>         *To:* Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]>
>>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>>         *Cc:* Tony Li <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>>         Zafar Ali (zali) <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>>         mpls <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>; mpls-chairs
>>         <[e-mail]> <mailto:[e-mail]>;
>>         [e-mail]
>>         *Subject:* Re: [mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on
>>         draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)
>>
>>         Hi Tianran,
>>
>>         Please point me to the part of RFC 9613
>>         <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9613/> that supports
>>         your request.
>>
>>         Regards,
>>
>>         Greg
>>
>>         On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 4:44 PM Tianran Zhou
>>         <zhoutianran=[e-mail]> wrote:
>>
>>             The IPR poll for the two document did not hit the point.
>>
>>             The point is how can the MNA mechanism disable the ISD
>>             and use PSD only.
>>
>>             The draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr need to resolve this.
>>
>>             Tianran
>>
>>             *From:*Tony Li [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf
>>             Of *Tony Li
>>             *Sent:* Monday, September 30, 2024 12:13 AM
>>             *To:* Zafar Ali (zali) <[e-mail]>
>>             *Cc:* Tianran Zhou <[e-mail]>; Dongjie
>>             (Jimmy) <[e-mail]>; Tarek Saad
>>             <[e-mail]>; mpls <[e-mail]>; mpls-chairs
>>             <[e-mail]>; [e-mail]
>>             *Subject:* Re: Working Group Last Call on
>>             draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)
>>
>>             Hi Zafar,
>>
>>                 I am aware of the thread but all we hear is that
>>                 chairs are discussing the responses and will share
>>                 further update, “interest” vs. “consensus” debate,
>>                 the chairs are discussing how to initiate the PSD
>>                 debate, etc. There were 65 emails on the original PSD
>>                 poll. I am not sure why we need another round of
>>                 debate and what will be the nature of that debate.
>>                 Why not just start WG adoption call and gauge the WG
>>                 “consensus”.
>>
>>             That’s exactly what we’re doing. The process for doing
>>             this begins with an IPR poll.
>>
>>             Nic started the IPR poll on draft-mb-mpls-ioam-dex and
>>             draft-gandhi-mpls-ioam-dex on Sept 3.
>>
>>             https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/XU3Ycij6Oq2kGWi14k3eXmpdQvM/
>>
>>             https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/7NmJqyMHDairPxEn7PGxz99KNiI/
>>
>>             Tony
>>
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