[mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)

[Loa Andersson <[e-mail]>]

Gyan,

Sorry about the late reply.

I fully share your sentiment, but do not "at a minimum  implemented by 
two vendors". I don't see that it is right to craft special criteria for 
one document, our processes holds water, we should just use then.

Evaluating this draft we should consider all implementation experiences 
we can get our hands on, and we we should take into consideration that 
we are dealing with changes to the MPLS data plane.

So far I see that there are a lot of things that we need to do, i.e. the
doc is not ready for publication.

I also have comment when you says:

    "The MNA header draft now in WGLC could then be progressed including
     PSD solution."

I think you are correct about the timing, but there is a an issue when 
you say "including the PSD".

I think we need two documents one for ISD and one for PSD.

However, indicating the presence of PSD is an ISD function, it happens 
from within the stack, whether it is by p-flag, OpCode/Offset or any 
other method. The presence indication should go into the ISD document.

/Loa



Den 30/09/2024 kl. 05:22, skrev Gyan Mishra:
> 
> Dear Chairs & WG
> 
> To clarify my position on PSD work is that the work should be completed 
> meaning at a minimum implemented by two vendors for interoperability and 
> at WGLC state.  The MNA header draft now in WGLC could then be 
> progressed including PSD solution.
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Gyan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 3:33 AM Gyan Mishra <[e-mail] 
> <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Dear Chairs & WG
> 
>     I agree with points raised by  Zafar, Jimmy, Tianran, Loe and other
>     WG members that this is a hardware implementation that is standards
>     track and that said must have a minimum two interoperable
>     implementations.
> 
>     I support both ISD and PSD.
> 
>     There has been a lot of discussions on ML about both and I think
>     both should be included in this draft as they are in the MNA
>     framework architecture draft section 3.6.
> 
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mna-
>     fwk-10#name-encoding-of-post-stack-data <https://
>     datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-mpls-mna-fwk-10#name-
>     encoding-of-post-stack-data>
> 
>     I agree the PSD work should be completed before we move forward with
>     progressing this document.
> 
>     This was from “IOAM and PSD” discussion this past summer:
> 
>      From Michel Menth 8/3/23 below
>     - presented some results at an interim meeting before:
> 
>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2024-mpls-01/session/
>     mpls <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2024-mpls-01/
>     session/mpls>
> 
>     IOAM requires mutable data. In combination with multiple labels,
>     e.g., for SR, these mutable data need to be near the bottom of the
>     stack, otherwise they get popped along the way. Moving them to PSD
>     makes encoding more efficient without increasing the effective
>     header length that needs  to be parsed. Therefore, we think PSD is
>     the better option for applications like IOAM.
> 
>     This draft is not ready for progression at this time.
> 
>     Kind Regards
> 
>     <http://www.verizon.com/>
> 
>     *Gyan Mishra*
> 
>     /Network Solutions A//rchitect /
> 
>     /Email [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>//
>     /
> 
>     /M 301 502-1347
> 
>     /
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 1:24 AM Zafar Ali (zali)
>     <zali=[e-mail]
>     <mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
> 
>         Dear chairs and the WG, __ __
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         I agree with points raised by Jimmy, Tianran, Loe and others. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         This is hardware implementation. ____
> 
>         The ask is to progress the document as a standards track RFC. ____
> 
>         Having at least two interoperable implementations by vendors
>         should be a bare minimum bar. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Support for PSD is part of the MNA architecture. ____
> 
>         There was a rather encrypted WG poll on PSD interest which shows
>         clear support from vendors and operators to work on the PSD
>         option. ____
> 
>         However, the working group has not heard any outcome of the
>         poll.____
> 
>         The PSD draft remains an individual draft. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Let’s first have the working group complete the work on PSD and
>         all the pieces. ____
> 
>         The document is not ready for progression as a standards track
>         RFC at this point in time. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Thanks ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Regards … Zafar____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         *From: *Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran=[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Date: *Thursday, September 26, 2024 at 7:48 PM
>         *To: *Dongjie (Jimmy) <jie.dong=[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>, Tarek Saad
>         <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>,
>         [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]> <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Cc: *MPLS Working Chairs <[e-mail] <mailto:mpls-
>         [e-mail]>>, [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]> <draft-ietf-mpls-mna-
>         [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Subject: *[mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-
>         mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)____
> 
>         Hi Tarek and WG,____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         I do not support the publication of this draft.____
> 
>         I agree with Jimmy there are serious concerns about ISD
>         implementation and performance.____
> 
>         I believe ISD is not the right approach for MNA, we will not
>         implement it.____
> 
>         I need a knob in existing MNA hdr to disable ISD and enable PSD.____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Best,____
> 
>         Tianran____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         *From:*Dongjie (Jimmy) [mailto:jie.dong
>         <mailto:jie.dong>=[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>]
>         *Sent:* Friday, September 27, 2024 12:28 AM
>         *To:* Tarek Saad <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         *Cc:* MPLS Working Chairs <[e-mail] <mailto:mpls-
>         [e-mail]>>; [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         *Subject:* [mpls] Re: Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-
>         mpls-mna-hdr (2nd WG call)____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Hi Tarek,____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Before the 1st WG LC, some implementation experience with the
>         -04 version of this draft was presented on an interim meeting:
>         https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2024-mpls-01/
>         session/mpls <https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2024-
>         mpls-01/session/mpls>. That implementation was from Academia. ____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         As shown in the meeting materials, the implementors met some
>         challenges with the encodings in -04 version, they asked some
>         questions and also gave some proposals for possible
>         optimization. As part of the WG LC, it would be important to
>         check whether the issues raised at that time have be addressed
>         by the latest version. It would be helpful if some feedback on
>         the latest version can be provided by those implementors. ____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         At IETF 120 I asked one question about the implementation
>         report. Are we aware of any other implementation of this
>         document, besides the implementation of the -04 version from
>         Academia? This would be important to gauge the maturity of the
>         document and the interest in implementing it. ____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Best regards,____
> 
>         Jie____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         *From:*Tarek Saad <[e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>         *Sent:* Tuesday, September 24, 2024 9:25 PM
>         *To:* [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         *Cc:* MPLS Working Chairs <[e-mail] <mailto:mpls-
>         [e-mail]>>; [e-mail]
>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
>         *Subject:* [mpls] Working Group Last Call on draft-ietf-mpls-
>         mna-hdr (2nd WG call)____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Dear WG,____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         This email starts a two-week Working Group last call for draft-
>         ietf-mpls-mna-hdr <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-
>         mpls-mna-hdr/>. This is the 2^nd WG last call for this document.____
> 
>         Please indicate your support or concern for this draft. If you
>         are opposed to the progression of the draft to RFC, please
>         articulate your concern. If you support it, please indicate that
>         you have read the latest version, and it is ready for
>         publication in your opinion. As always, review comments and nits
>         are most welcome.____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Please send your comments to the mpls WG mailing list
>         ([e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>).____
> 
>         If necessary, comments may be sent unidirectional to the WG
>         chairs.____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Note, currently there are 5 IPR disclosures against this
>         document at https://datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?
>         submit=draft&id=draft-ietf-mpls-mna-hdr <https://
>         datatracker.ietf.org/ipr/search/?submit=draft&id=draft-ietf-
>         mpls-mna-hdr>____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         This poll runs until October 8, 2024.____
> 
>         ____
> 
>         Thank you,____
> 
>         Tarek (for the MPLS WG co-chairs)____
> 
>         _______________________________________________
>         mpls mailing list -- [e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>
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>         <mailto:[e-mail]>
> 
> 
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-- 
Loa Andersson
Senior MPLS Expert
Bronze Dragon Consulting
[e-mail]
[e-mail]