Re: [mpls] [spring] Invitation to participate in an Open MPLS wg desifn team on how to carry additional forwarding data in MPLS packets

Andrey Slastenov <a.slastenov@gmail.com> Wed, 14 April 2021 06:19 UTC

Return-Path: <a.slastenov@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: mpls@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: mpls@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B330C3A0CFF for <mpls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2R0rD9nOMmtC for <mpls@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ed1-x52b.google.com (mail-ed1-x52b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 473193A0D01 for <mpls@ietf.org>; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-ed1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id z1so22242104edb.8 for <mpls@ietf.org>; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WHfskiuw5J0SL31deu38csaxNeXlc3mre1jqn/T1HoQ=; b=p0jPlBzM3sOcN+bPe1E/mqnwWe8tIILX7GZZZze1g4rqzhzb06v+igyFvPE56ZRgB5 Z8dRnr+guil6zWJvxVI8oDh+5Xxu6o2+9H/y2L93pfSdEL0b5vnIgUu5RuKs0sdX/3Pf EABbMGjBW3nLrE5BrcGdMcKGgJYJcvHq1s/dfbFVo0fg+vJWHjVUb/uurKvQlgdSCHYM MFchBpAn2Z0GsZ0evTlUJ0ml8gEV2DbSNqpQxRhgjFG2VwZZ+S3zkul6x4U2eE9hUZNt 5agPsYZDMpkIy+4TWHulHeVh51rSC51rax2wSIdS0vGkXNrjQ0nRRGcm5MxLLSO1u1Wo jSIg==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WHfskiuw5J0SL31deu38csaxNeXlc3mre1jqn/T1HoQ=; b=gPVox2DWwOF4Hmc5WLHByQramWaHR3nmsgL3ykx9fidsp2I+D90NRL5dsuaKCZQqWW fG3ZHPyQR/QR+oqavPpCBIxYLlYenduqjj8TgHdzcUJ/wYRvOSioB4x3hrIQAFBoDzT5 ZSSm4XCbK3CzHCBHB168wMirt/AyX3qk0gKjeqUTIPT+Ap5WSmMfh+sf5RmqNMscRnXf cvmQfJUAN7KNbni8NXnWfB/Ep2KtfUEHC2KzdPGhVUCiz4x3LitHEa5+HPulj/Ta0/8w 7iCCjgAUNAUqRI+Knnc5jlGffhSdMUwrDfKCTJJ3vsIshRaehcoZaejiz4N0i4yhxQiV 5T5w==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530aZV2wBWz5urqORjhZG/m8c0PIR72haljh2wbwB8BOFn48ySzK lZSt9cucXRZME7exCbrZI1OA/IQ3rYIzhzc/uVE=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQMQFiYn1v2yPq9+fQyQiJAQ54HPK3ikAxEkoCYm60lLxWUjRvk39ITodPjDCN9N5GQFtkdizc67STiiO11uY=
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:a4a:: with SMTP id bt10mr37967009edb.39.1618381150814; Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:19:10 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <be54bfcb-1f27-939f-97cc-edaf2020cc6a@pi.nu> <a31b59cc658c4693a1cba53e1abfc0d4@huawei.com> <714d24f53c04408f94949317e2ea8072@huawei.com> <7f943c98d67940fd90334b4a50e13852@huawei.com> <BYAPR08MB54939EB12439E86CFE6E6187854E9@BYAPR08MB5493.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <436ffa61-947f-8998-4832-95bb839fba99@pi.nu> <CABYudarOpcT-xAtXfi6cWPbdao8a5sMN1a_SN-Gy5TGFMewXPQ@mail.gmail.com> <7dbdc18a-e68a-d9b8-af70-087110a6a8f7@pi.nu>
In-Reply-To: <7dbdc18a-e68a-d9b8-af70-087110a6a8f7@pi.nu>
From: Andrey Slastenov <a.slastenov@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:18:59 +0300
Message-ID: <CABYudar2DVHnME0Vhwcaj8qBfh2H8AOKXUpgTS1efM7w4W9qLw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>
Cc: "Fomin, Sergey (Nokia - US/Mountain View)" <sergey.fomin@nokia.com>, Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>, "mpls@ietf.org" <mpls@ietf.org>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009b046005bfe8b9c9"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/mpls/bI0iZJoJYV4HyosGV2kAF_bH35w>
Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Invitation to participate in an Open MPLS wg desifn team on how to carry additional forwarding data in MPLS packets
X-BeenThere: mpls@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Multi-Protocol Label Switching WG <mpls.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/mpls>, <mailto:mpls-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/mpls/>
List-Post: <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:mpls-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls>, <mailto:mpls-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 06:19:19 -0000

Hi, Loa

> However, this is not standardized. Nor do I see any reason or good way
> to do it.
Agree with you, technically, one way to do it, just to use one of the
reserved labels from RFC7274 between the transport and service part in the
labels stack.
But it will require a huge change in label allocation and switching
processes.

> Are you talking about label values?
I am talking about some special scenarios like CsC, when it is very tricky
to distinguish between transport and service layers.

But the more interesting question for me what advantages we get by
implementing such a separation. The first thing that comes to mind is label
processing in a batch, something else?
That's why I am waiting for comments from Eduard.



ср, 14 апр. 2021 г. в 08:42, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu>nu>:

> Andrey,
>
> Inline please.
>
> On 14/04/2021 13:34, Andrey Slastenov wrote:
> > Hi, Loa
> >
> >  >If you pick a label (value, TTL, TC and BoS) I can't see that there is
> a
> >  >way to tell if it is a transport or service label.
> > As soon as we have a continuous set of labels it's easy to split them
> > into the transport and service part.
>
> Yes, this is easy to do and from an operational point of view there is
> no reason why you should not do it.
>
> However, this is not standardized. Nor do I see any reason or good way
> to do it.
>
> > A more interesting question is what we get from this separation, given
> > that the boundaries between the transport and service layers are often
> > blurred.
> > (e.g. service labels from one LSR can be used as transport labels by
> > another LSR).
>
> Are you talking about label values?
>
> /Loa
> >
> > I look forward to the comments from Eduard.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> > Andrey Slastenov
> >
> >
> > ср, 14 апр. 2021 г. в 07:40, Loa Andersson <loa@pi.nu <mailto:loa@pi.nu
> >>:
> >
> >     Eduardo,
> >
> >
> >     On 14/04/2021 08:40, Fomin, Sergey (Nokia - US/Mountain View) wrote:
> >      > Hi Eduard,
> >      >> MPLS had a separate data plane header for services/overlay and
> >     separate for transport/underlay since the beginning.
> >      >> - It is important to preserve the clear separation of data plane
> >     headers for services/overlay and transport/underlay
> >      >
> >      > Could you elaborate a little bit on that?
> >      > In my opinion, almost the opposite is (currently) true - there's
> >     no distinction between "service/overlay" and "transport/underlay"
> >     headers, and there's no intrinsic semantics of mpls labels (except
> >     for special-purpose labels).
> >      > MPLS labels have meaning only because of the existence of
> >     FEC/NHLFE/ILM mappings.
> >
> >     I'm on the same page Sergey. Would be good to have a bit more meat on
> >     the bones to understand what you want to do/preserve.
> >
> >     If you pick a label (value, TTL, TC and BoS) I can't see that there
> >     is a
> >     way to tell if it is a transport or service label.
> >
> >     And I don't think that any of the proposals we are currently
> discussing
> >     in the DT scope intend to chnge that.
> >
> >     /Loa
> >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      > Sergey
> >      >
> >      > -----Original Message-----
> >      > From: mpls <mpls-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:mpls-bounces@ietf.org>>
> >     On Behalf Of Vasilenko Eduard
> >      > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 2:01 AM
> >      > To: mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
> >      > Subject: Re: [mpls] [spring] Invitation to participate in an Open
> >     MPLS wg desifn team on how to carry additional forwarding data in
> >     MPLS packets
> >      >
> >      > Hi MPLS Guru!
> >      > Sorry. I did not have a chance to participate in your call.
> >      > I do agree to all policies specified below. Could I propose 1
> >     additional?
> >      >
> >      > MPLS had a separate data plane header for services/overlay and
> >     separate for transport/underlay since the beginning. "Transport" in
> >     IETF has 2 meanings - I am referencing here to forwarding.
> >      > TEAS continues to specify VPN+ in the same way: VPN and VTN are
> >     separate.
> >      > We have seen examples when transport or service headers have been
> >     stacked independently, primarily it was the stack of many transport
> >     labels with 1 service label, but the opposite is possible too.
> >      > I propose the policy:
> >      > - It is important to preserve the clear separation of data plane
> >     headers for services/overlay and transport/underlay for independent
> >     innovation and management by different control plane protocols
> >      >
> >      > IMHO: It is an important and valuable differentiator.
> >      >
> >      > Eduard
> >      >> -----Original Message-----
> >      >> From: spring [mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:spring-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Loa
> >      >> Andersson
> >      >> Sent: Sunday, April 4, 2021 9:51 AM
> >      >> To: mpls-ads@ietf.org <mailto:mpls-ads@ietf.org>; pals@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:pals@ietf.org>; DetNet WG <detnet@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:detnet@ietf.org>>;
> >      >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> >      >> Subject: [spring] Invitation to participate in an Open MPLS wg
> >     desifn
> >      >> team on how to carry additional forwarding data in MPLS packets
> >      >>
> >      >> MPLS, PALS, DETNET and SPRING working groups,
> >      >>
> >      >> Note: This message is sent to four working groups, please limit
> >      >> responses to the mpls wg mailing list only.
> >      >>
> >      >> All members of the four working group are invited to participate
> >     in an
> >      >> open MPLS wg design team to address the work that was discussed
> >     in the
> >      >> joint meeting at IETF 110
> >      >>
> >      >> Below follows "notes" from a meeting between chairs of the four
> >      >> working groups 2021-03-22. It outlines how we initially will
> >     take on the work.
> >      >>
> >      >> -------------------  meeting notes   -----------------------
> >      >>
> >      >>
> >      >> Continue the work the joint meeting at IETF 110.
> >      >> ================================================
> >      >>
> >      >> Working Group Chairs from MPLS, PALS, SPRING and DETNET met
> >      >> 2021-03-22 to discuss how to follow up the joint meeting at IETF
> >     110.
> >      >>
> >      >> Participation:
> >      >> --------------
> >      >>
> >      >>     Loa Andersson (mpls)
> >      >>     Tarek Saad (mpls)
> >      >>     Stewart Bryant (pals)
> >      >>     Andy Malis (pals)
> >      >>     Joel Halpern (spring)
> >      >>     Lou Berger (detnet)
> >      >>
> >      >> We discussed three themes
> >      >> -------------------------
> >      >>
> >      >> - what to do next
> >      >> - how to document the output from the joint meeting
> >      >> - how to organize the work that starts here
> >      >>
> >      >> We agreed
> >      >> =========
> >      >>
> >      >> - that the work starting here is part of the MPLS architecture
> >     and in
> >      >>     the end might lead to updates - that this is work that
> should be
> >      >>     coordinated by the mpls working group and that discussion
> >     working
> >      >>     group adoption and the discussion should be taken to the
> MPLS WG
> >      >>     mailing list.
> >      >>
> >      >> We agreed with the summary from the joint meeting
> >      >> -------------------------------------------------
> >      >>
> >      >> - that tt is important that MPLS grows and develops to support
> >     the new
> >      >>     needs of network operators. The alternative to such
> >     development is
> >      >>     stagnation and a path to obsolescence.
> >      >>
> >      >> - that is important that any change does not adversely impact the
> >      >>     operation of legacy equipment installed in the same network
> >     as the n
> >      >>     new functionality.
> >      >>
> >      >> - it is important that any change is both forwards and backwards
> >      >>     compatible. i.e. that any change does not limit the ability
> for
> >      >>     further future development of MPLS.
> >      >>
> >      >> - it is important that any change be practical on the forwarding
> >      >>     technology likely to be deployable in the reasonably near
> >     future.
> >      >>
> >      >> - it is important that we minimize the number of changes needed
> to
> >      >>     support the new needs but making that change an elegant
> approach
> >      >>     that satisfies as many of the new needs as possible.
> >      >>
> >      >> - there is sufficient interest and urgency in the need for new
> >     features
> >      >>     that we need to work on this between meetings to progress at
> an
> >      >>     acceptable rate.
> >      >>
> >      >> We also agreed on some practical things
> >      >> ---------------------------------------
> >      >>
> >      >> - the list (possibly incomplete) of proposals in Stewart's slides
> >      >>     has been updated to a short draft to serve as input to this
> work
> >      >>     (draft-bryant-mpls-dev-primer-00.txt).
> >      >>
> >      >> - the work will be divided into two "tracks" (1) proposals
> carrying
> >      >>     information after the BoS and; (2) proposals carrying info
> >     in the
> >      >>     stack.
> >      >>
> >      >> - we will hold open design-team meetings, i.e. any member of the
> >     four
> >      >>     working groups are encouraged to participate
> >      >>
> >      >> - the meeting cycle is 5 weeks:
> >      >>
> >      >>     -- "week 1" we will have a joint meeting to coordinate
> >     between the
> >      >>        two tracks
> >      >>     -- "week 2" and "week 4" we will have a track 1 meeting
> >      >>     -- "week 3" and "week 5" we will have a track 2 meeting
> >      >>     -- "week 6" = "week 1"; and we start the count over again
> >      >>
> >      >> We will start  with joint (kick off) meeting April 8. The agenda
> >     will
> >      >> be prepared during the week of April 5, let us know if there is
> >     anything you want to discuss.
> >      >> We already now know that we will want to discuss Stewart's
> primer.
> >      >>
> >      >> Mach will send out WebEx details to all four working groups.
> >      >>
> >      >> - the over all coordination of this activity will done by Loa, if
> >      >>     you need a slot in any meting or need to put a discussion
> point
> >      >>     on the agenda ping Loa.
> >      >>
> >      >> - the meetings will be every Thursday at 3pm Central European
> Time.
> >      >>
> >      >> /Loa
> >      >> for(all) the wg-chairs
> >      >>
> >      >>
> >      >> --
> >      >>
> >      >> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> >     <mailto:loa@pi.nu>
> >      >> Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:
> loa.pi.nu@gmail.com>
> >      >> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
> >      >>
> >      >> _______________________________________________
> >      >> spring mailing list
> >      >> spring@ietf.org <mailto:spring@ietf.org>
> >      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/spring>
> >      >
> >      > _______________________________________________
> >      > mpls mailing list
> >      > mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls>
> >      > _______________________________________________
> >      > mpls mailing list
> >      > mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls>
> >      >
> >
> >     --
> >
> >     Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu <mailto:
> loa@pi.nu>
> >     Senior MPLS Expert loa.pi.nu@gmail.com <mailto:loa.pi.nu@gmail.com>
> >     Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     mpls mailing list
> >     mpls@ietf.org <mailto:mpls@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls
> >     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mpls>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > *
> > Andrey Slastenov*
> > Network Expert
> > CCIE #19983
> > Email:a.slastenov@gmail.com <mailto:a.slastenov@gmail.com>
>
> --
>
> Loa Andersson                        email: loa@pi.nu
> Senior MPLS Expert                          loa.pi.nu@gmail.com
> Bronze Dragon Consulting             phone: +46 739 81 21 64
>


-- 



*Andrey Slastenov*
Network Expert
CCIE #19983
Email:a.slastenov@gmail.com