Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> Wed, 16 November 2016 07:12 UTC
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From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
To: "cpaasch@apple.com" <cpaasch@apple.com>
Thread-Topic: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:11:55 +0000
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Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org" <multipathtcp@ietf.org>, "Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com" <Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>
Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP
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Christoph, I would like to make two comments: * The implementers I have in mind are CPE vendors and Carrier-Grade platform manufacturers. * Implementation does not come for free. Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De : cpaasch@apple.com [mailto:cpaasch@apple.com] > Envoyé : mardi 15 novembre 2016 18:22 > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > Cc : philip.eardley@bt.com; robert.skog@ericsson.com; > Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com; alan.ford@gmail.com; multipathtcp@ietf.org > Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP > > On 15/11/16 - 12:40:01, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > > Re-, > > > > I have one comment about the target applications: QUIC is definitely > one. > > > > For the VoIP case (RTP to be more accurate), there is already a > candidate solution: Multipath RTP (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf- > avtcore-mprtp-03). > > > > I don’t have results to share because we are in a chicken/egg situation: > implementers are asking for a stable specification to play with. > > I don't buy this argument. Implementors can build a prototype to feed > information/feedback into the standardization process. > > > Christoph > > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > De : philip.eardley@bt.com [mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com] > > Envoyé : mardi 15 novembre 2016 12:51 > > À : robert.skog@ericsson.com; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN; > Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com; alan.ford@gmail.com > > Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org > > Objet : MPTCP carrying UDP > > > > (I changed the Subject line of the email) > > > > Do people have any experimental results /experiences they could share of > running UDP applications over MPTCP sub-flows? Would be interested to > hear about the issues. I guess VoIP and Quic would be the most interesting > ones. Whether the experiments are with only one path being used at once, > or multiple. etc > > > > > > > > From: Robert Skog [mailto:robert.skog@ericsson.com] > > Sent: 15 November 2016 10:09 > > To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; > Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; > Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R > <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>>; > alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com> > > Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org> > > Subject: RE: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item > > > > +1 > > We see a need to solve UDP in several places, so having a separate > specification can help this moving forward. > > > > Cheers, > > /Robert > > > > From: multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> > > Sent: den 15 november 2016 09:57 > > To: Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com>; > philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; > alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com> > > Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item > > > > Hi Markus, all, > > > > I’m on the same page that non-tcp traffic should be considered in scope. > At least, the UDP case should be investigated. I remember there was > interest in BA meeting about the UDP part > (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/95/minutes/minutes-95-mptcp). > > > > An option I see is to consider advancing the use of MPTCP to convey UDP > flows in a separate EXPERIMENTAL specification that will be cross-reviewed > with other WGs (intarea, tsvwg). Having that base specification will help > having interoperable implementations that will be used to carry > experimentations. > > > > Those experiments will help to determine whether the proposed solution > is complex/simple, viable/non-viable, failed/successful, etc. > > > > Let’s give it a try. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > De : multipathtcp [mailto:multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de > Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com<mailto:Markus.Brunner3@swisscom.com> > > Envoyé : mardi 15 novembre 2016 08:58 > > À : philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>; > alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com> > > Cc : multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org> > > Objet : Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item > > > > Phil, > > > > If you feel it would take too long and to be too complex to achieve in a > reasonable timeframe, we are ok with excluding non-tcp traffic, however, > for our total solution we do requires also non-tcp traffic to be sent over > multiple paths. We could argue that we can use a different mechanisms > specifically for UDP and other protocols, but it would be nice to have as > single MPTCP-based solution. (my gut feeling is that we would need to > replicate a lot of MPTCP scheduling features into a new mechanism). > > > > Marcus > > > > Von: multipathtcp <multipathtcp-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp- > bounces@ietf.org>> im Auftrag von > "philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>" > <philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com>> > > Datum: Montag, 14. November 2016 um 07:32 > > An: "alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>" > <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> > > Cc: "multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>" > <multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org>> > > Betreff: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item > > > > > > i think we should move beyond "exploring whether it would be useful". > > > > > > > > i'd like us to assess proposed solutions. i think we should say this is > what we're doing - at the moment we've had quite a lot of discussion about > one proposal. we should give the chance for other proposals, and make the > discussion more structured (what are the assessment criteria). > > > > > > > > i also think we should explicitly exclude non-tcp traffic (i think non- > tcp traffic is too big a topic for our WG) > > > > > > > > phil > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Alan Ford <alan.ford@gmail.com<mailto:alan.ford@gmail.com>> > > Sent: 14 November 2016 06:11 > > To: Eardley,PL,Philip,TUB8 R > > Cc: multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org> > > Subject: Re: [multipathtcp] Towards a Multipath TCP Proxy work item > > > > I think this work item is achievable by simply removing references to > “at least one end” from the existing charter item on the proxy. So the > item would now read: > > > > Finally, the working group will explore whether an MPTCP-aware > > middlebox would be useful. For example, potentially helping MPTCP’s > > incremental deployment by allowing only one end host to be MPTCP-enabled > > and the middlebox acts as an MPTCP proxy for the other end host, which > runs > > TCP; and potentially helping some mobility scenarios, where the middle > box > > acts as an anchor between two MPTCP-enabled hosts. Alternatively, > neither > > end host could be MPTCP-enabled but a pair of proxies could work > together to > > bring MPTCP benefits to such connections. The working group will detail > what real > > problems an MPTCP-enabled middlebox might solve, how it would impact the > > Multipath TCP architecture (RFC6182), what proxy approach might be > > justified as compared against alternative solutions to the problems, and > > the likely feasibility of solving the technical and security issues. > > > > In some ways, the two ended proxy work could even be seen as an > extension of the previous operational experience work within this WG. > > > > Regards, > > Alan > > > > On 10 Nov 2016, at 19:17, > philip.eardley@bt.com<mailto:philip.eardley@bt.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, > > Perhaps this is speaking too soon, but it looks like the very active > discussion is reaching some common understanding? > > > > We’re trying to work out what a work item might look like, so would like > to understand what assumptions we would make, eg about the scenario, & > what common agreements we’d assume & restrictions on how the solution > works. This seems important to frame work by WG. If possible we’d like > discussion on these points to avoid getting into the fine details of one > particular existing proposal. > > > > What we’d appreciate is a summary of what the assumptions > /understandings are about: > > • The scenario (for instance: the MPTCP-enabled host knows the > address of the proxy (eg through configuration); and it knows the address > of the ‘legacy’ host it wants to communicate with) > > • If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP > protocol’s fallback behaviour and coping with middleboxes > > • If we can agree that the solution is based on a new MPTCP > option > > • If any impact is already envisaged on the current MPTCP > protocol’s semantics (other than the new option) eg in terms of > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6824#section-4 > > • If any impact is already envisaged on TCP’s semantics, or any > mods are needed, or assumptions about its behaviour, etc > > • If any impact is already envisaged on other existing transport > protocol’s semantics (presuming people still would like non-TCP in scope?) > > • Anything else that you think is needed in order to frame the > work item > > > > It may be clearer to do this for the two use cases (single-ended proxy, > ie where only one host is MPTCP-enabled; and double-ended proxy, ie where > neither host is MPTCP-enabled). > > > > This may seem like a long list, but most of the answers can be “none” – > we’ll end up with just a short paragraph or a few bullets in the charter. > > > > We’d also have to work out interactions with non-MPTCP WGs, but Mirja > and IESG will probably want the main input on this. > > > > Thanks > > Phil & Yoshi > > _______________________________________________ > > multipathtcp mailing list > > multipathtcp@ietf.org<mailto:multipathtcp@ietf.org> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > multipathtcp mailing list > > multipathtcp@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/multipathtcp
- [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP philip.eardley
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Alan Ford
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Markus.Brunner3
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Christoph Paasch
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP N.Leymann
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Markus.Brunner3
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP William Ivancic
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Sébastien Noel
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP philip.eardley
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP mohamed.boucadair
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP Olivier Bonaventure
- Re: [multipathtcp] MPTCP carrying UDP N.Leymann