Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice?
Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> Sun, 05 August 2018 09:21 UTC
Return-Path: <mbj@tail-f.com>
X-Original-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: netconf@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9BA2130F9C for <netconf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 5 Aug 2018 02:21:53 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.9
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aNnxHo3bAlJt for <netconf@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sun, 5 Aug 2018 02:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail.tail-f.com (mail.tail-f.com [46.21.102.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73988130F93 for <netconf@ietf.org>; Sun, 5 Aug 2018 02:21:51 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (h-80-27.A165.priv.bahnhof.se [212.85.80.27]) by mail.tail-f.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B67F91AE0144; Sun, 5 Aug 2018 11:21:50 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 11:21:50 +0200
Message-Id: <20180805.112150.1992258953771490171.mbj@tail-f.com>
To: andy@yumaworks.com
Cc: einarnn=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org, netconf@ietf.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
In-Reply-To: <CABCOCHReK=Pyu+0gEWszrO291AsZoH_YDyi02DDHi-7=apzzoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <024DE375-E3F0-4255-AC53-2D17C77D6E06@juniper.net> <78F7B695-FB2A-4308-B031-B7447596B04B@cisco.com> <CABCOCHReK=Pyu+0gEWszrO291AsZoH_YDyi02DDHi-7=apzzoQ@mail.gmail.com>
X-Mailer: Mew version 6.7 on Emacs 24.5 / Mule 6.0 (HANACHIRUSATO)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netconf/0NGimEdhEkvHM10vVU2L44hTxxw>
Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice?
X-BeenThere: netconf@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27
Precedence: list
List-Id: Network Configuration WG mailing list <netconf.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/netconf>, <mailto:netconf-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/netconf/>
List-Post: <mailto:netconf@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:netconf-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf>, <mailto:netconf-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2018 09:21:54 -0000
Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> wrote: > On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn) < > einarnn=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > Inline... > > > > On 2 Aug 2018, at 16:11, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote: > > > > > > I am sympathetic to Eric's and Einar's observation that a given > > subscription, having multiple receivers, is likely to have all the > > receivers using the same transport and encoding. > > > > > > einarnn> Absolutely. I see very few real world cases where it is likely > > that we will see same subscription with different receivers using different > > encodings. It is a step too far IMO. > > > > The thought behind this is that, assuming there are multiple distinct > > applications, each application will selfishly create its own subscription; > > it will not try to see if there is another existing subscription that > > matches its needs. > > > > > > einarnn> This is the likely outcome if you are in a multi-manager scenario > > anyway. We shouldn’t be trying to optimise anything related to thinking > > that *distinct* consumers will try to reuse others’ subscriptions in a > > spirit of good citizenship. It just won’t, pragmatically, happen. What > > would be way more likely to happen to support this is that the distribution > > out to multiple distinct consumers will happen by way of middleware put in > > place by the customer. > > > > Thus, in effect, the *only* purpose for there being a *list* of receivers > > is for enabling high availability, which I think is okay. I wish the text > > was clearer about this objective. > > > > > > einarnn> Agreed. Let’s just move past this issue > > > > > > OK, I do not want to hold up dynamic subscriptions. > I do not agree with the design practice of empty mandatory choice. > It looks like a band-aid for a broken development process, not good > architecture. > > Is it really such a complex problem to define a case with an address/port > end-point? > Sorry I missed the rationale for why removing such an obvious data model > for an endpoint > so it can be replaced with proprietary augments instead. What are vendors > using to model > an endpoint that is so different from host/port? For NETCONF, you would have a leafref to a call-home endpoint, as defined in the ietf-netconf-server model. In addition to the address / port, it has certificates and keys. /martin > > > Cheers, > > > > Einar > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > What I object to is the way that this restriction is currently implemented > > using identities, which requires the "notif" models to do something right.. > > Better would be a "must" expression that says the count of the descendants > > is exactly one. Can you do that? > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > ===== original message ===== > > > > I am wondering why we are reopening the issue of multiple > > encodings/transports per receiver vs per subscription? > > > > Having single transport / encoding per subscription is a simpler design > > (feedback from implementors; simplifies dealing with any error conditions > > due to encoding that would affect one receiver but not others in the same > > subscription; Einar has explained this in the past) and, while I am in > > general a fan of general design, there does not seem to be business > > requirements and scenarios that demand this - and even if there were, this > > would constitute merely an optimization (since if you have different > > receivers who want different encodings/tranport, you can always simply > > create another subscription). > > > > If in the future there is really desire to add this as an additional > > feature, we can put this into a -bis version. (Adding stuff will be easier > > than taking things away.) Let's just be done. > > > > --- Alex > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Netconf [mailto:netconf-bounces@ietf.org <netconf-bounces@ietf.org>] > > On Behalf Of Martin > > Bjorklund > > Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 7:51 AM > > To: kwatsen@juniper.net > > Cc: evoit=40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org; netconf@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory choice? > > > > Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote: > > > > [removing yang-doctors list, and updating subject line accordingly] > > > > > > Why do all receivers of a subscription have to use the same > > > > transport? > > > > > > This was something that Martin and Eric worked out before we did > > the first Last Call. Eric doesn't seem to know the particular > > reason, other than Martin seems to think it’s easier. > > > > > > No; I personally also prefer a design where each receiver has its > > own transport + encoding. > > > > > > +1 > > > > > > The original model had a common "encoding" for all receivers, and > > then a receiver-specific transport - I think this is even worse, > > > > > > Agreed. > > > > > > and suggested to have transport + encoding defined together > > preferrably receiver-specifc or else common for all receivers. > > > > If the WG now believes that the transport + encoding should be done > > per receiver, this should be fairly easy to change. > > > > > > I also prefer per receiver, and I think that doing so will simplify > > the model, as neither the mandatory "transport" nor the [not > > mandatory?] "encoding" leaves have to be specified. > > > > In particular, my thoughts are that the "notif" model should provide > > for the encoding selection, if needed (it's not needed for NETCONF, or > > COAP I imagine). > > > > > > I agree. I think this would be a cleaner design. > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > In the case of RESTCONF, we could update the ietf-restconf-client and > > ietf-restconf-server models to include an "encodings" leaf-list, to > > configure the RESTCONF server which encodings it should support. We > > likely need to do something similar to configure which HTTP versions > > should be supported. Now, in a general RC server, the server could > > support both but, if the restconf-notif draft has its own list of > > restconf-servers (i.e., it uses the "restconf-server-grouping" itself, > > see my July 19 email for a YANG example), then a constraint could be > > added limiting the number "supported" to just one. Thus, when the RC > > server reboots, and connects to the receiver and *automatically* (no > > client RPC) starts pushing notifications, it can know what encoding to > > use. > > > > I'm still unsure if its legal for an RC server to automatically push > > notifications without a client-initiated RPC of any sort, and I'm also > > uncertain if supporting *configured* subscriptions for NC or RC is > > needed (see my message July 20 email). So, some of this may work > > itself out as we progress. > > > > I know that we're not defining the *configured* notif drafts in this > > first effort, the we are publishing the SN draft with a configuration > > model, my only concern now is configuration model presented in the SN > > draft. > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www. > > ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_netconf&d=DwIGaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK- > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m= > > Mh0UuTFvh9TpmFzzMMON07C4WQIwjRJLM-OT62OJZe4&s=PPy3uCUVVJa- > > GwAfmUexA9cX31IWHhlMHlAGMcPdnyY&e= > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Netconf mailing list > > Netconf@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netconf > > > >
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandatory c… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Robert Wilton
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Einar Nilsen-Nygaard (einarnn)
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] YANG Doctor question: empty mandato… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… tom petch
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] [yang-doctors] YANG Doctor question… Martin Bjorklund