Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-12
Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> Thu, 14 June 2018 18:40 UTC
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Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 20:39:59 +0200
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To: evoit@cisco.com
Cc: j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de, alexander.clemm@huawei.com, alex@clemm.org, netconf@ietf.org
From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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References: <20180613160206.gkutjhxigdxpv2uz@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <20180614.102216.2199378020340361225.mbj@tail-f.com> <f6f66d0c0a444f2bb0fc770082450037@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications-12
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"Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote: > > From: Martin Bjorklund, June 14, 2018 4:22 AM > > > > Hi, > > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 03:36:01PM +0000, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > > Each of the terms used are different. While they all are defined in > > > > the first > > document they are used, let me paraphrase the meanings of the > > definitions... > > > > > > > > Event - something that happened > > > > > > > > Event record - the recorded details of a single event > > > > > > > > Update record - one or more datastore node updates > > > > > > > > <notification> - a structure defined in RFC5277 which is as a wrapper > > > > which > > contains an event record. A <notification> can exist without any > > active > > subscription. > > > > > > > > "notification" statement - a structure defined in RFC-7950 section > > > > 7.16 > > which allows the definition of event record types specific to a YANG > > module. > > The results of the a YANG "notification" statement are encoded in a > > <notification>. > > > > > > Here is where I am getting lost. The RFC 7950 notification statement > > > (its not a structure btw) does define the content of a notification. > > > And notification used to be defined in RFC 6241 as a "server-initiated > > > message indicating that a certain event has been recognized by the > > > server." Your notion of an event record may come from the RFC 5277 > > > format that adds an eventTime etc. but the relationship of what is a > > > YANG defined notification and how it related to your event record and > > > the <notification> structure is still unclear. > > > > I don't think we should align terminology with 5277. More important > > is to > > align with the current set of documents; 7950 and 6241. > > Exactly. > > Note that there was no terms imported from 5277. > Subscribed-notifications does define an umbrella term "notification > message", and uses Section 2.6 to make the minimal connection > necessary to show that an RFC-5277 <notification> is a valid > "notification message". BTW: We had text in earlier versions of > subscribed-notifications stating the need to support future types of > "notification messages" such as those defined in > draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages. However reviewers asked > these evolving references to be removed. > > We do have the option of importing terms from 6241 into the > NETCONF-notif document. This would be the right place to do it > because in the subscribed-notifications document we want to limit any > introduction of NETCONF dependencies. (Maybe NETCONF-notif adds text > to say that a "RFC6241 client" maps to subscriber, and "RFC6241 > server" maps to publisher?) 8342 defines the terms "client" and "server" in a transport-agnostic way. I think we should try to use these terms in new documents, where applicable. In this document, the term "subscriber" is a special "client". I am not sure that a "publisher" is always a "server"; this needs to be decided. > > If subscribed-notifications is transport-independent, it should > > probably not talk > > too much about <notifcation> etc; this should go into the transport > > docs. > > In general, this is what is done. In subscribed-notifications, the > only place <notification> is mentioned at all is section 2.6. If > necessary, we could move this section to NETCONF-notif, but that would > leave no transport independent framing for the notifications. I guess > it is possible to live without that, but it would leave the > subscribed-notifications feeling incomplete. If subscribed-notifications is transport independent, it should not have the NETCONF-specific text in 2.6. 2.6 also says: In all cases, a single transport session MUST be capable of supporting the intermixing of RPCs and notifications from different subscriptions. This applies to NETCONF, but not for the UDP transport, and I suspect not for the HTTP transport either? > I suspect a similar > thought process drove the inclusion of <notification> within RFC-6020 > and then RFC-7950. No; for various reasons YANG was initially positioned as a data modelling language for NETCONF only. Hence all text about how to map YANG to NETCONF and XML. > > 7950 says that the "notification" statement defines a notification. > > As Juergen pointed out this term is not defined in the terminology > > section, but > > nevertheless the term is used. > > > > Does the WG now want to introduce a new term for what the > > "notification" > > statement defines? > > It certainly might make sense to have a future update of RFC-7950 with > something like this. I spend a bit of time trying to understand the > connection of YANG notification statement with <notification>. Having > this be better defined would be helpful. > > > It seems to me that the term "event record" is being > > proposed for this. > > An event record is not necessarily a YANG notification, as the event > record's payload might not be driven by the result of a YANG > statement. I don't get this. Can you give an example of when an event record is not defined as a YANG "notification"? > > The answer to this question will have a big impact on the > > rest of the terminology. > > As event record has a larger scope than what can come from a YANG > notification statement, my suggestion would be for the revision of > RFC-7950 to import "event record", and then specify a new subtype term > (maybe "YANG event record"?). If that term works, a YANG event record > could then be an event record where the contents are populated by the > results of the YANG notification statement. > > > > > Notification message - a message intended for a specific subscription > > receiver which includes one or more <notification>. A notification > > message will > > have undergone any security/content filtering on embedded > > <notification> as > > appropriate for that receiver. > > > > > > So how does this fit Figure 1 of RFC 6241? This figure indicates that > > > <notification> is a message as seen from the messages layer. You are > > > saying a notification message is something else that includes one or > > > more <notification>s. Yes, I know that the diagram in RFC 5277 is > > > different but the diagram in RFC 6241 is the newer one. > > > > This confuses me as well. > > The requirement for the bundling of many events is being driven by > large data center telemetry. It is unclear at this point whether > NETCONF will be a transport used in this environment. > > If NETCONF does care about this environment, and does want to support > something like draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages, I do think > tweaks to RFC-6241 will be needed. Yes, somehow. > For example what is the definition > of <notification> within 6241, Figure 1 (right now point RFC-5277 > isn't explicitly mentioned.). Must this figure only be interpreted as > a RFC 5277 <notification>? Can the figure also mean a > draft-ietf-netconf-notification-messages "message"? RFC 6241 says that <notification> is defined in RFC 5277. (ok, there's an error in there, and it points to 5717, but there's an errata for that). > > How much of this do we have to define in this document, and how much > > should go into the transport docs? > > Beyond what I describe above, impacts would be to new/updated > transport drafts. Plus an update to subscribed-notifications section > 2.6 to indicate that a new transport independent <notification> > construct exists. Ok. /martin > > Eric > > > /martin > > > > > > > > Per the discussion below, I see an update record being a specialized > > > > type of > > event record. For YANG push, the 'event' is driven by the update > > trigger: i.e., > > either the expiration of a periodic timer (for periodic > > subscriptions), or a > > change to the datastore (on-change subscription). > > > > > > > > > > I am missing a definition what an Update record is. It is surely not > > > in this email. Anyway, if there are changes to architectural concepts, > > > it would be nice to find them in a coherent well explained section. > > > > > > /js > > > > > > -- > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 <https://www.jacobs-university.de/> > > > >
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Tianran Zhou
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Andy Bierman
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Kent Watsen
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Henk Birkholz
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Alexander Clemm
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Kent Watsen
- [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subscrib… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [Netconf] comments on draft-ietf-netconf-subs… Eric Voit (evoit)