[Netext] next steps for netext

On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:17 AM, Vijay Devarapalli <vijay at wichorus.com> wrote:
> Hi Gerardo,
>
>> 3GPP has a study item on this feature. There was no PMIPv6
>> solutions proposed on any I-D - there is a 3GPP-specific
>> solution proposed for PMIPv6 (based on the policy infrastructure).
>
> This is exactly what I would like to avoid. I would prefer using a
> solution developed in the IETF rather than something in 3GPP.
>

GT> Why not? 3GPP and other SDOs have been creating technology for
almost as long as the IETF. Getting the IETF to do something only
makes sense if the given protocol has general applicability and does
not damage the Internet, which is why we are having this discussion.

GT> In another e-mail where you are over-viewing a possible solution
to PMIP multihoming you talk about how the MN may use an L2 to signal
to indicate what flows need to go to a given MAG. I do not see how the
IETF can define a protocol that fully depends on such an L2 signal. If
such functionality is needed then the IETF must define it at the IP
layer to make sure that this works across ALL link layers (which is
the main reason the IETF and the Internet exist).

GT> So, in my book you (pmip mhoming fans) have two hurdles to overcome:
1) Admit to yourself that to do this in the IETF you need to define an
MN-MAG protocol at the IP layer (e.g., see Conny's draft)
2) Convince people that defining such a client based protocol in
addition to the existing standard (MIPv6) is warranted. In the
process, explain to people why you want to introduce FA functionality
to MIPv6, which is what MAGs become if you add an MN-MAG leg to PMIP's
MAG-HA leg.

George

> Vijay
>
>> 3GPP has not decided yet to do any normative work on any of
>> the solutions.
>>
>> Gerardo
>>
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: Hesham Soliman [mailto:hesham at elevatemobile.com]
>> > Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 2:52 PM
>> > To: Giaretta, Gerardo
>> > Cc: Domagoj Premec; 'Marco Liebsch'; netext at mail.mobileip.jp;
>> > Basavaraj.Patil at nokia.com
>> > Subject: Re: [Netext] next steps for netext
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > I will now stop discussing 3GPP specific issues in this
>> list, sorry for that
>> > > :-)
>> >
>> > => Please continue to tell us whether 3GPP needs certain
>> function though.
>> > Based on your last email, I don't understand what is the
>> basis for the
>> > claims of 3GPP needing this function. Seems like a baseless
>> claim not backed
>> > by 3GPP.
>> >
>> > Hesham
>> >
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Gerardo
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >> Vijay
>> > >>
>> > >>> On the WiMAX side, I know there are still open issues
>> (discussed at the
>> > last
>> > >> 3GPP SA2 meeting) to make a handover between 3GPP and
>> WiMAX with PMIPv6
>> > >> working.
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Such
>> > >>>> large scale managed networks are the main consumers of
>> PMIP6 so we
>> > >> shouldn't
>> > >>>> be ignoring what they're doing.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> This is mainly true for intra-technology mobility - and
>> note that I am
>> > >> considering LTE-eHRPD intra-technology here as they are
>> homogeneous from a
>> > >> link layer point of view.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Gerardo
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> Saying to use MIP for inter-access
>> > >>>> handovers/multihoming is not helping as they have
>> really set their mind
>> > on
>> > >>>> using PMIP6 and they're already doing this. Without
>> going into the
>> > >> reasoning
>> > >>>> behind such a decision, the fact is that PMIP6, as
>> defined in RFC 5213,
>> > has
>> > >>>> issues with inter-access handovers. I think it is
>> better to fix those
>> > PMIP6
>> > >>>> issues in the IETF then to let each SDO come up with
>> their own way of
>> > >>>> dealing with this.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> domagoj
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>>>> From: netext-bounces at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>>>> [mailto:netext-bounces at mail.mobileip.jp] On Behalf Of ext
>> > >>>>> Hesham Soliman
>> > >>>>> Sent: 07. travanj 2009 11:14
>> > >>>>> To: Marco Liebsch
>> > >>>>> Cc: netext at mail.mobileip.jp; Basavaraj.Patil at nokia.com
>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [Netext] next steps for netext
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> => We're discussing a problem statement for the BoF, so
>> > >>>>> 4830 is quite
>> > >>>>>>> appropriate as a reference for why people wanted PMIP in
>> > >>>>> the first place.
>> > >>>>>> Yes, a problem statement about an existing solution for
>> > >>>>> network-based
>> > >>>>>> mobility management (PMIPv6) to support advanced use cases.
>> > >>>>> => Where is that PS?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> ? Not the problem of
>> > >>>>>> existing solutions for localized mobility, as
>> RFC4830 does. I don't
>> > >>>>>> think NetExt aims at turning PMIPv6 into a
>> host-based mobility
>> > >>>>>> protocol again.
>> > >>>>> => I don't know what the goal is based on the BoF discussion
>> > >>>>> and this discussion on the list. The reason I don't know that
>> > >>>>> is that no one is
>> > >>>>> saying:
>> > >>>>> Here is the state of the art (including BOTH MIP and PMIP)
>> > >>>>> and here is why they don't work, therefore we need to do
>> > >>>>> something new.
>> > >>>>> That's what a PS should say. What's being said here is "PMIP
>> > >>>>> doesn't support advanced cases therefore we need something
>> > >>>>> new", which is completely bogus because PMIP was not designed
>> > >>>>> to support those cases because we already have something else
>> > >>>>> for supporting those cases. Hence my reference to 4830...
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I'm going to retire from the discussion till someone makes
>> > >>>>> the argument above. Because I feel that if there is no such
>> > >>>>> argument then the discussion is not a good use of time.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> => Yes, additional software like the existing MIP. I don't
>> > >>>>> understand
>> > >>>>>>> the motivation for creating something new. I've detailed
>> > >>>>> this in my
>> > >>>>>>> previous emails and the points remain unanswered.
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Nobody talks about adding a piece of client mobility
>> management
>> > >>>>>> software, such as a MIP client, to the mobile. That
>> seems to be a
>> > >>>>>> wrong interpretation of what NetExt wants to do.
>> > >>>>> => You're missing the point. Why isn't anybody talking about
>> > >>>>> MIP??? That's what a PS should say.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Hesham
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>> marco
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> Hesham
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>> and obviously also according to RFC4831. We should
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> distinguish modification for mobility management, which
>> > >>>>> is not what
>> > >>>>>>>> we want to do, and enabling local functions, such
>> as the use of
>> > >>>>>>>> multiple interfaces, where you have to add routes,
>> configure
>> > >>>>>>>> interfaces etc. to enable the use case.
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> marco
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>> Hesham Soliman schrieb:
>> > >>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> => I think you're distinguishing between modified and
>> > >>>>> unmodified
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> based on whether the modification affects IETF
>> > >>>>> protocols or not.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> That's fine, but for those that did not attend
>> the BoF, our
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> conclusions were that you will either end up modifying
>> > >>>>> the host
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> (i.e. Adding new SW) and adding new signalling on
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> L2 to handle the multihoming cases, or you can
>> stick with MIP.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> My opinion, and at least half the room's was that this
>> > >>>>> is not a
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> good way to
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> We can discuss what implies host changes and why
>> this is such a
>> > >>>>>>>>>> big deal anyway. But I don't think that half the
>> room was in
>> > >>>>>>>>>> agreement as such. At least from the count of hands
>> > >>>>> raised for the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> question about whether we should work on multihoming
>> > >>>>> and intertech
>> > >>>>>>>>>> handovers it was about 18-9 (in favor).
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> => I think the question changed a few times :) The final
>> > >>>>> question
>> > >>>>>>>>> (which was specific to whether people wanted to work
>> > >>>>> with this or
>> > >>>>>>>>> not) showed a split room.
>> > >>>>>>>>> The host changes are not a big deal but they are
>> mentioned here
>> > >>>>>>>>> because they were one of the very few reasons for using
>> > >>>>> NETLMM in
>> > >>>>>>>>> the first place: Host changes (adding new SW to
>> the host) and
>> > >>>>>>>>> signalling from the MN. You can see them in section 4 of
>> > >>>>> RFC 4830.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> go and that it's better to stick with MIP instead of
>> > >>>>> relying on a
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> solution that will:
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - work on some L2s and not others,
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> We have no ability to specify changes to L2
>> anyway. However if
>> > >>>>>>>>>> some L2s do have such capability, why would we
>> not specify how
>> > >>>>>>>>>> multihoming would work in such scenarios.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> => Because we already have a solution that works
>> in all L2s,
>> > >>>>>>>>> doesn't require
>> > >>>>>>>>> L2 changes that we don't control and doesn't cause
>> > >>>>> confusing host
>> > >>>>>>>>> config solutions.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Require additional SW and config on the host which
>> > >>>>> is not done
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> anywhere today, and
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Why is there as much of a concern about additional SW
>> > >>>>> or config?
>> > >>>>>>>>>> After all everything (or most of it anyway) that we do
>> > >>>>> in the IETF
>> > >>>>>>>>>> requires configurations, protocol changes,
>> changes to SW etc.
>> > >>>>>>>>>> There is nothing unique about this.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> => Sure, but see above and see RFC 4830. These were the
>> > >>>>> reasons for
>> > >>>>>>>>> using PMIP in the first place. We can't have it both
>> > >>>>> ways, or can
>> > >>>>>>>>> we? :)
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> - Require L2 signalling which is out of our
>> scope in IETF
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> Agree. We cannot do anything about L2s. But we
>> could specify
>> > >>>>>>>>>> (informatively)
>> > >>>>>>>>>> what L2 capabilities would enable these features
>> if that is the
>> > >>>>>>>>>> conclusion that we arrive at.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> => We can, but I don't know why we should do that when a
>> > >>>>> solution
>> > >>>>>>>>> already exists. Especially when the alternative
>> is inferior in
>> > >>>>>>>>> terms of its applicability.
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> Hesham
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>> -Raj
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> This is why I think we should stick with the charter
>> > >>>>> that Jari sent.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> I share the same view with respect to all your other
>> > >>>>> comments.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> We need to seperate the cases of flow mobility vs
>> > >>>>> basic handoff
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> as allowed in 5213. In the BOF, we discussed
>> mostly flow
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> mobility and not the basic handoff cases supported
>> > >>>>> today in 5213.
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Sri
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> NetExt mailing list
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>>>>>> NetExt mailing list
>> > >>>>>>>>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>>>>>>>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>>
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> NetExt mailing list
>> > >>>>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>>>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> NetExt mailing list
>> > >>>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> NetExt mailing list
>> > >>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> > >>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>> > >
>> >
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> NetExt mailing list
>> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
>> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> NetExt mailing list
> NetExt at mail.mobileip.jp
> http://www.mobileip.jp/mailman/listinfo/netext
>