Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com> Thu, 25 April 2019 07:36 UTC

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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:35:59 -0400
From: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, internetgovtech@iab.org, architecture-discuss@ietf.org, nethistory@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting
more and more confused.  Yes, there are some broad principles
that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet
architecture".  Once one gets past extremely broad principles
and down to details, I doubt that there is strong consensus in
the community about many of the details of that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some
people would claim that some of the things that are said in some
of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance";
many, including questions about who should be in charge of
various resources once one determines that someone, or some
combination of actors, actually need to be, do not.  The mailing
lists you are using are appropriate for discussions of those
issues although I think the case for cross-posting to
internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the
nethistory list, has yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with
each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.   Almost by definition, the
readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.  Most
such readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to
be for.  But almost everything I've read from you seems to be an
explanation of the existence of an Internet architecture and/ or
an Internet governance topic together with the existence and
availability of the lists.  

Do you want something?  Do you intend to try to explain
something to us that we don't know already?  If so, is that
explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if
so, how.  And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
  john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra
<gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is
> supposedly a matter of the Internet Governance suitable with
> what was ever officially published by the Internet
> Architecture Board related with the release of
> internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
> 
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet
> governance and IETF technical work. In particular, this list
> will focus on issues relating to Internet governance and
> regulation, including the 2014 ITU Plenipotentiary Conference,
> and their potential to impact the future of the Internet
> architecture".
> 
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
> 
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> 
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250)
>> referring IP service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC
>> 1958, and section 2.1 of RFC 4903 --while the document as a
>> whole referring also to other RFCs.
>> 
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed
>> the Internet architecture examplified by
>> 
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet
>> Architecture" (Kempf, J.  & R. Austen Eds., Network Working
>> Group-IAB, 2004)
>> 
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end
>> principles as it had been applied by the Internet over years.
>> 
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>> 
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>> 
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol
>> suite" envisioned its possible evolution as there had been
>> increasing signs of strains on the fundemental architecture
>> mostly stemming from the continued growth of the Internet.
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>> 
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> 
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
>>> Technical Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals,
>>> or collective individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences
>>> of reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze
>>> and Felix Guattari.
>>> 
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are
>>> pleased to visit these links below
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8
>>> 
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>> 
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>> 
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> 
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and
>>>> www.rfc-editor.org are historians for the services of
>>>> historical archives the provide. While a personal historian
>>>> may deserve to mention, especially on the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>> 
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service
>>>> model as they evolved over time .... Some guidence for
>>>> protocol designers an implementers were also suggested...
>>>> 
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>> 
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>> 
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>> 
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my
>>>>> message April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention
>>>>> "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981)
>>>>> and its histories -- those obsolete and updates: which is
>>>>> about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they have...
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>> 
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do
>>>>> not use terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples
>>>>> "Transmission Control Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol",
>>>>> " Broadcasting Internet Datagrams"...
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet
>>>>>> Architecture" to Internet protocols and their designs
>>>>>> (mentioned in my message April 21st 2019): it looks
>>>>>> "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
>>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title
>>>>>> "Internet Protocol" they have....
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which
>>>>>>> I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension
>>>>>>> of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as
>>>>>>> the latter considered complexity (control) in relation
>>>>>>> with the Internet in large scale...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which
>>>>>>> I missed before-- was made to propose such an extension
>>>>>>> of "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as
>>>>>>> the first considered complexity (control) in relation
>>>>>>> with the Internet in large scale...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002)
>>>>>>>> --which I missed before-- was made to propose such an
>>>>>>>> extension of "Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On
>>>>>>>>> Behalf Of *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April
>>>>>>>>> 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org;
>>>>>>>>> internetgovtech@iab.org; nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture,
>>>>>>>>> Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural
>>>>>>>>> Principles of the Internet" mentioned about Internet
>>>>>>>>> protocols and their design: May this links helpful to
>>>>>>>>> get arrived there at related archives ( as the text did
>>>>>>>>> not use any online source but suppposedly paper ones
>>>>>>>>> as references)...:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>   Here are  menus "Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>   Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an
>>>>>>>>> age of the Internet. It is such a presence may be
>>>>>>>>> approached and sensed by many ways --even when one
>>>>>>>>> said that s/he had just eat a food which a receipt was
>>>>>>>>> gotten by communicating by the Internet..
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical
>>>>>>>>> Work" and "Net History" as they represent
>>>>>>>>> interest-based mailing lists. How could one get
>>>>>>>>> arrived into those matters (together) --such a
>>>>>>>>> programmatic readership/learning: as sources and
>>>>>>>>> concepts have history and discources
>>>>>>>>> collectives/net... ? Should we imagine about
>>>>>>>>> information sources by making such a readership based
>>>>>>>>> on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and
>>>>>>>>> Technical Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History
>>>>>>>>> in Terms of The Internet Architecture, Governance and
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work)...? --there would be a discourse map
>>>>>>>>> on the special readership which is about a co-presence
>>>>>>>>> of mailing lists...? --as one may use search engines
>>>>>>>>> of each mailing list for related interests...?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go
>>>>>>>>> with such tentative journeys considering parts of the
>>>>>>>>> special readership...?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet
>>>>>>>>> Architecture?" we may refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Achitecture intended for general guidance and
>>>>>>>>> general interest...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the
>>>>>>>>> document RFC 1958 have history bringing readers to
>>>>>>>>> other relevant sources... They supposedly also give
>>>>>>>>> suggestions to come to broader or other conceptual
>>>>>>>>> discourses on "governance and technical work"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>