Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> Fri, 26 April 2019 02:56 UTC

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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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References: <CAKi_AEsFQLyNy3PZt0HR=Vid9HCgOviG_Hi5KPPU7CtvuZ352A@mail.gmail.com> <C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A34D6@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKi_AEtgukArGKTFcZyxaX7BrFWVXzfxr_V-7WrYiOrmeOzDKg@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEttPFPcqqB_rH1nU_+Mg==niMznGoD8vq_93yB-uS_xXw@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEvsd6m1YC2cZuavEJJ8QK_N4P7ipFYkB2vqFaVVkc5x2A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEuFHWg_n2E8gfSapZg9-EVQouMY-StYMH0fAZ0ueq45Xw@mail.gmail.com> <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> <C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A9880@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKi_AEsFbqYNBYguucaUkoy65zZH+F=vhd+WOQgaTp5hsuBh3Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAJhMdTN9xHcdvALhJP1HkhUDSv4tx0D-OHWR+B6PxACetgyC0w@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEs-XyknVFtvJaErbWoOXnEPMiqLNt3DAziNf6UMAZvvmw@mail.gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:56:36 -0400
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To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "internetgovtech@iab.org" <internetgovtech@iab.org>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, "nethistory@ietf.org" <nethistory@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Bravo.

On Apr 25, 2019, at 22:54, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:

Dear Joe and All,

The expostition I tried was about a learning... Here is a place of
concerned people...


Regard,
Guntur Wiseno Putra

Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>; menulis:

> Guntur,
>
> You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such
> practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a
> skilful exposition.
>
>
> Joe
>
> On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:
>
> Dear All John, Hesham and All,
>
>
> What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a
> grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...?
> as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help
> of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...?
>
> Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled
> by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up
> tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with
> possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform
> --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance...
>
> But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design
> and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with
> their suggestions...
>
>
>
>
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;
> menulis:
>
>> I actually have the same question ...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
>> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
>> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;;
>> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org;
>> nethistory@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>>
>> Guntur,
>>
>> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and
>> more confused.  Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered
>> together to constitute an "Internet architecture".  Once one gets past
>> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is
>> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that
>> architecture:
>> there are other documents with different theories and some people would
>> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you
>> have cited have not stood the test of time.
>> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many,
>> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once
>> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need
>> to be, do not.  The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for
>> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to
>> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list,
>> has yet to be made.
>>
>> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each
>> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
>> what you are trying to accomplish.   Almost by definition, the
>> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.  Most such
>> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.  But
>> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the
>> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic
>> together with the existence and availability of the lists.
>>
>> Do you want something?  Do you intend to try to explain something to us
>> that we don't know already?  If so, is that explanation likely to be
>> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.  And, of course, what is it?
>>
>> thanks,
>>   john
>>
>>
>> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <
>> gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:
>>
>> > Dear All,
>> >
>> > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
>> > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible
>> > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a
>> > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever
>> > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with
>> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
>> >
>> > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance
>> > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues
>> > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU
>> > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future
>> > of the Internet architecture".
>> >
>> > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
>> >
>> > Regard,
>> > Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >
>> > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
>> > menulis:
>> >
>> >> Dear All,
>> >>
>> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP
>> >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2..1
>> >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other
>> >> RFCs.
>> >>
>> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the
>> >> Internet architecture examplified by
>> >>
>> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
>> >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture"
>> >> (Kempf, J.  & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)
>> >>
>> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it
>> >> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>> >>
>> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>> >>
>> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
>> >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>> >>
>> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet
>> >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite"
>> >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs
>> >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the
>> >> continued growth of the Internet.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>> >>
>> >> Regard,
>> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>
>> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
>> >> menulis:
>> >>
>> >>> Dear All,
>> >>>
>> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical
>> >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective
>> >>> individuals, are in an age of the
>> >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and
>> >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of
>> >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix
>> >>> Guattari.
>> >>>
>> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased
>> >>> to visit these links below
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8
>> >>>
>> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Regard,
>> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>
>> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
>> >>> menulis:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are
>> >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide.
>> >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on
>> >>>> the "Internet
>> >>>> Architecture":
>> >>>>
>> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as
>> >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an
>> >>>> implementers were also suggested...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
>> >>>>
>> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regard,
>> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
>> >>>> menulis:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
>> >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
>> >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet
>> >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those
>> >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet
>> >>>>> Protocol" they have...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>> >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use
>> >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control
>> >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet
>> >>>>> Datagrams"...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>> <gsenopu@gmail..com <gsenopu@gmail.com>>; menulis:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to
>> >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message
>> >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791:
>> >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>> >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and
>> >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they
>> >>>>>> have....
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter
>> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
>> >>>>>>> large scale...
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> It should be:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first
>> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in
>> >>>>>>> large scale...
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I
>> >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of
>> >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>> >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in
>> >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale....
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <
>> >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; menulis:
>> >>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Hesham
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of
>> >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>> >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org;
>> >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance,
>> >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
>> >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles
>> >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their
>> >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related
>> >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but
>> >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)....:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>   Here are  menus "Internet Standard", "Official
>> >>>>>>>>>   Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of
>> >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and
>> >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just
>> >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the
>> >>>>>>>>> Internet..
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet
>> >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and
>> >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists.
>> >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such
>> >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts
>> >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we
>> >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership
>> >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three....? Thus we may say
>> >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical
>> >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The
>> >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...?
>> >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership
>> >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may
>> >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related
>> >>>>>>>>> interests...?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with
>> >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special
>> >>>>>>>>> readership...?
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> For example:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above:
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may
>> >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet
>> >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general
>> >>>>>>>>> interest...
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC
>> >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant
>> >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to
>> >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and
>> >>>>>>>>> technical work"
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Regard,
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> >>>>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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