Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> Fri, 26 April 2019 02:56 UTC
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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
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References: <CAKi_AEsFQLyNy3PZt0HR=Vid9HCgOviG_Hi5KPPU7CtvuZ352A@mail.gmail.com> <C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A34D6@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKi_AEtgukArGKTFcZyxaX7BrFWVXzfxr_V-7WrYiOrmeOzDKg@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEttPFPcqqB_rH1nU_+Mg==niMznGoD8vq_93yB-uS_xXw@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEvsd6m1YC2cZuavEJJ8QK_N4P7ipFYkB2vqFaVVkc5x2A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEuFHWg_n2E8gfSapZg9-EVQouMY-StYMH0fAZ0ueq45Xw@mail.gmail.com> <754E03CE4D0735B550B88448@PSB> <C3855D43D6701846AD1151A536E7A0584F2A9880@sjceml521-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKi_AEsFbqYNBYguucaUkoy65zZH+F=vhd+WOQgaTp5hsuBh3Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAJhMdTN9xHcdvALhJP1HkhUDSv4tx0D-OHWR+B6PxACetgyC0w@mail.gmail.com> <CAKi_AEs-XyknVFtvJaErbWoOXnEPMiqLNt3DAziNf6UMAZvvmw@mail.gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 22:56:36 -0400
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To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, "internetgovtech@iab.org" <internetgovtech@iab.org>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, "nethistory@ietf.org" <nethistory@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Bravo. On Apr 25, 2019, at 22:54, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: Dear Joe and All, The expostition I tried was about a learning... Here is a place of concerned people... Regard, Guntur Wiseno Putra Pada Jumat, 26 April 2019, Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> menulis: > Guntur, > > You are to be congratulated indeed. Not since the heyday of such > practitioners as Dr Joe Baptista and Dean Anderson have I seen such a > skilful exposition. > > > Joe > > On Apr 25, 2019, at 06:23, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: > > Dear All John, Hesham and All, > > > What are after such an "introductory" reading --such a grand image, such a > grand map...? -on the Internet architecture and governance...? > as we are trying to learn of those aspects by such reading with the help > of a set of knowledges on concept, discourse and history...? > > Histories, historical stories, attempted above teach us: people struggled > by technology. At least we have an "enthusiasm" for what will come up > tomorrow, especially about our humanity and society regarding with > possibilities of the Internet as a kind of communication platform > --especially on aspects of it: architecture and governance... > > But, there are perhaps lacks with these analytical readings --those design > and implementation-- being attempted... Here thus experts may come with > their suggestions... > > > > > Regard, > Guntur Wiseno Putra > > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> > menulis: > >> I actually have the same question ... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] >> Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM >> To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> >> Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; >> internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; >> nethistory@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >> Guntur, >> >> I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and >> more confused. Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered >> together to constitute an "Internet architecture". Once one gets past >> extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is >> strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that >> architecture: >> there are other documents with different theories and some people would >> claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you >> have cited have not stood the test of time. >> Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, >> including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once >> one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need >> to be, do not. The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for >> discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to >> internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, >> has yet to be made. >> >> But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each >> posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and >> what you are trying to accomplish. Almost by definition, the >> readers of these lists know they exist and are out there. Most such >> readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for. But >> almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the >> existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic >> together with the existence and availability of the lists. >> >> Do you want something? Do you intend to try to explain something to us >> that we don't know already? If so, is that explanation likely to be >> actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how. And, of course, what is it? >> >> thanks, >> john >> >> >> --On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra < >> gsenopu@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > Dear All, >> > >> > The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their >> > designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible >> > inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a >> > matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever >> > officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with >> > the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013) >> > >> > "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance >> > and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues >> > relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU >> > Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future >> > of the Internet architecture". >> > >> > https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/ >> > >> > Regard, >> > Guntur Wiseno Putra >> > >> > Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> >> > menulis: >> > >> >> Dear All, >> >> >> >> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP >> >> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2..1 >> >> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other >> >> RFCs. >> >> >> >> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the >> >> Internet architecture examplified by >> >> >> >> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End >> >> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" >> >> (Kempf, J. & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004) >> >> >> >> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it >> >> had been applied by the Internet over years. >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274 >> >> >> >> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D. >> >> et all., Network Working Group, 1991) >> >> >> >> This document represented an understanding that the Internet >> >> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" >> >> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs >> >> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the >> >> continued growth of the Internet. >> >> >> >> >> >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287 >> >> >> >> Regard, >> >> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >> >> >> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> >> >> menulis: >> >> >> >>> Dear All, >> >>> >> >>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical >> >>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective >> >>> individuals, are in an age of the >> >>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and >> >>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of >> >>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix >> >>> Guattari. >> >>> >> >>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased >> >>> to visit these links below >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8 >> >>> >> >>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0 >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> Regard, >> >>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>> >> >>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> >> >>> menulis: >> >>> >> >>>> Dear All, >> >>>> >> >>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are >> >>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. >> >>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on >> >>>> the "Internet >> >>>> Architecture": >> >>>> >> >>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as >> >>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an >> >>>> implementers were also suggested... >> >>>> >> >>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011) >> >>>> >> >>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250 >> >>>> >> >>>> Regard, >> >>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>> >> >>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com> >> >>>> menulis: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" >> >>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those >> >>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet >> >>>>> Protocol" they have... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol >> >>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use >> >>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control >> >>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet >> >>>>> Datagrams"... >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Regard, >> >>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>> <gsenopu@gmail..com <gsenopu@gmail.com>> menulis: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to >> >>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message >> >>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: >> >>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J. >> >>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and >> >>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they >> >>>>>> have.... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791 >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> It should be: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first >> >>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in >> >>>>>>> large scale... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All, >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I >> >>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of >> >>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in >> >>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale.... >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < >> >>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> menulis: >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Hesham >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss >> >>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of >> >>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM >> >>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; >> >>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org >> >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, >> >>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?" >> >>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles >> >>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their >> >>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related >> >>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but >> >>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)....: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name= >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Here are menus "Internet Standard", "Official >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search". >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com> menulis: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Dear All, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of >> >>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and >> >>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just >> >>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the >> >>>>>>>>> Internet.. >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and >> >>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. >> >>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such >> >>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts >> >>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we >> >>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership >> >>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three....? Thus we may say >> >>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical >> >>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The >> >>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? >> >>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership >> >>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may >> >>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related >> >>>>>>>>> interests...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with >> >>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special >> >>>>>>>>> readership...? >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> For example: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above: >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may >> >>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958 >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> (Note:) >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet >> >>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general >> >>>>>>>>> interest... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439... >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC >> >>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant >> >>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to >> >>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and >> >>>>>>>>> technical work" >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Regard, >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ > Nethistory mailing list > Nethistory@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/nethistory > >
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] [arch-d] The Internet, Architect… Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Governan… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, … John C Klensin
- Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, … Hesham ElBakoury
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… John C Klensin
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Joe Abley
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Joe Abley
- Re: [Nethistory] [arch-d] [Internetgovtech] The I… giorgio.simeoli
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra
- Re: [Nethistory] The Internet, Architecture, Gove… Guntur Wiseno Putra