Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> Thu, 25 April 2019 08:40 UTC

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From: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>
CC: "internetgovtech@iab.org" <internetgovtech@iab.org>, "architecture-discuss@ietf.org" <architecture-discuss@ietf.org>, "nethistory@ietf.org" <nethistory@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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Subject: Re: [Nethistory] [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
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I actually have the same question ...

-----Original Message-----
From: John C Klensin [mailto:john-ietf@jck.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 25, 2019 12:36 AM
To: Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>;
Cc: Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>;; internetgovtech@iab.org; architecture-discuss@ietf.org; nethistory@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Internetgovtech] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical Work and Net History: A Speci

Guntur,

I've tried to following your multiple postings, but am getting more and more confused.  Yes, there are some broad principles that can be considered together to constitute an "Internet architecture".  Once one gets past extremely broad principles and down to details, I doubt that there is strong consensus in the community about many of the details of that architecture:
there are other documents with different theories and some people would claim that some of the things that are said in some of the documents you have cited have not stood the test of time.
Some of those principles interact with "Internet governance"; many, including questions about who should be in charge of various resources once one determines that someone, or some combination of actors, actually need to be, do not.  The mailing lists you are using are appropriate for discussions of those issues although I think the case for cross-posting to internetgovtech and architecture-discuss, much less the nethistory list, has yet to be made.

But what I don't understand --and what is confusing me more with each posting from you-- is why you are posting these notes and
what you are trying to accomplish.   Almost by definition, the
readers of these lists know they exist and are out there.  Most such readers know, or knew once, what the lists are supposed to be for.  But almost everything I've read from you seems to be an explanation of the existence of an Internet architecture and/ or an Internet governance topic together with the existence and availability of the lists.  

Do you want something?  Do you intend to try to explain something to us that we don't know already?  If so, is that explanation likely to be actionable by the IETF or IAB and, if so, how.  And, of course, what is it?

thanks,
  john


--On Thursday, April 25, 2019 08:16 +0700 Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> The Internet architecture --the Internet protocols and their
> designs-- are in situations among which is about its possible 
> inplementations enabled by such a governance(s). That is supposedly a 
> matter of the Internet Governance suitable with what was ever 
> officially published by the Internet Architecture Board related with 
> the release of internetgovtech@iab.org mailing list (2013)
> 
> "to discuss topics regarding the intersection of Internet governance 
> and IETF technical work. In particular, this list will focus on issues 
> relating to Internet governance and regulation, including the 2014 ITU 
> Plenipotentiary Conference, and their potential to impact the future 
> of the Internet architecture".
> 
> https://iab.org/activities/internet-governance/
> 
> Regard,
> Guntur Wiseno Putra
> 
> Pada Kamis, 25 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; 
> menulis:
> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> D. Thaler in his "Evolution of the IP Model" (RFC 6250) referring IP 
>> service model to section 2.2. of RFC 0791, RFC 1958, and section 2.1 
>> of RFC 4903 --while the document as a whole referring also to other 
>> RFCs.
>> 
>> There are also other historians and futurologs ever analysed the 
>> Internet architecture examplified by
>> 
>> RFC 3274 "The Rise of the Middle and the Future of End-to-End
>> Argument: Reflections on the Evolution of the Internet Architecture" 
>> (Kempf, J.  & R. Austen Eds., Network Working Group-IAB, 2004)
>> 
>> This document examined the development of end-to-end principles as it 
>> had been applied by the Internet over years.
>> 
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc3274
>> 
>> RFC 1827 "Toward The Future Internet Architecture" (Clark, D.
>> et all., Network Working Group, 1991)
>> 
>> This document represented an understanding that the Internet 
>> architecture as "the grand plan behind the TCP/IP protocol suite" 
>> envisioned its possible evolution as there had been increasing signs 
>> of strains on the fundemental architecture mostly stemming from the 
>> continued growth of the Internet.
>> 
>> 
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1287
>> 
>> Regard,
>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>> 
>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; 
>> menulis:
>> 
>>> Dear All,
>>> 
>>> The reasoning of "The Internet, Architecture, Governance, Technical 
>>> Work, and Net History" I said above "Individuals, or collective 
>>> individuals, are in an age of the
>>> Internet...": as it concerns with "concept", "discourse" and 
>>> "history" is supposedly inspired by my personal experiences of 
>>> reading works on and by Michel Foucault, Gilles Deleuze and Felix 
>>> Guattari.
>>> 
>>> To those have interests with the "supposed inspiration" are pleased 
>>> to visit these links below
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Foucault&x=7&y=8
>>> 
>>> https://www.espacestemps.net/?s=Deleuze%2C+Guattari&x=0&y=0
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Regard,
>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>> 
>>> Pada Rabu, 24 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; 
>>> menulis:
>>> 
>>>> Dear All,
>>>> 
>>>> The websites www.datatracker.ietf.org and www.rfc-editor.org are 
>>>> historians for the services of historical archives the provide. 
>>>> While a personal historian may deserve to mention, especially on 
>>>> the "Internet
>>>> Architecture":
>>>> 
>>>> D. Thaler documented aspects of Internet Protocol service model as 
>>>> they evolved over time .... Some guidence for protocol designers an 
>>>> implementers were also suggested...
>>>> 
>>>> "RFC 6250: Evolution of IP Service Model" (IAB, May 2011)
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc6250
>>>> 
>>>> Regard,
>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>> 
>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra <gsenopu@gmail.com>; 
>>>> menulis:
>>>> 
>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture"
>>>>> to Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message 
>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: Internet 
>>>>> Protocol" (J. Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those 
>>>>> obsolete and updates: which is about the name/title "Internet 
>>>>> Protocol" they have...
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>> 
>>>>> The RFC 791 is one of Official Internet Protocol
>>>>> Standards: Internet Standards --of which there are ones do not use 
>>>>> terms "Internet Protocol" -- for examples "Transmission Control 
>>>>> Protocol", "User Datagram Protocol", " Broadcasting Internet 
>>>>> Datagrams"...
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/standards
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regard,
>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>> 
>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra 
>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As Brian E. Carpenter referred the "Internet Architecture" to 
>>>>>> Internet protocols and their designs (mentioned in my message 
>>>>>> April 21st 2019): it looks "special" to mention "RFC 791: 
>>>>>> Internet Protocol" (J.
>>>>>> Postel, September 1981) and its histories -- those obsolete and 
>>>>>> updates: which is about the name/title "Internet Protocol" they 
>>>>>> have....
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc791
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra 
>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There is a need for correction for the earlier message:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I 
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of 
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the latter 
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in 
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It should be:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I 
>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of 
>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet" (1996) as the first 
>>>>>>> considered complexity (control) in relation with the Internet in 
>>>>>>> large scale...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>> Gintur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Pada Selasa, 23 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra 
>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Dear Hesham and All,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The update "The Architectural Guidelines" (2002) --which I 
>>>>>>>> missed before-- was made to propose such an extension of 
>>>>>>>> "Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>>>>>>>> (1996) as the latter considered complexity (control) in 
>>>>>>>> relation with the Internet in large scale...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc3439.txt
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Hesham ElBakoury < 
>>>>>>>> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I think you meant RFC1958 which is updated by RFC3439.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hesham
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> *From:* Architecture-discuss
>>>>>>>>> [mailto:architecture-discuss-b ounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of 
>>>>>>>>> *Guntur Wiseno Putra *Sent:* Monday, April 22, 2019 6:41 AM
>>>>>>>>> *To:* architecture-discuss@ietf.org; internetgovtech@iab.org; 
>>>>>>>>> nethistory@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [arch-d] The Internet, Architecture, Governance, 
>>>>>>>>> Technical Work and Net History: A Speci
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Of the question "What is the Internet Architecture?"
>>>>>>>>> mentioned in the earlier message:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Brian. E. Carpenter's text "RFC 1985: Architectural Principles 
>>>>>>>>> of the Internet" mentioned about Internet protocols and their 
>>>>>>>>> design: May this links helpful to get arrived there at related 
>>>>>>>>> archives ( as the text did not use any online source but 
>>>>>>>>> suppposedly paper ones as references)...:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search?name=
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> - https://www.rfc-editor.org/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>   Here are  menus "Internet Standard", "Official
>>>>>>>>>   Internet Protocol Standards", and "advanced search".
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Pada Senin, 22 April 2019, Guntur Wiseno Putra 
>>>>>>>>> <gsenopu@gmail.com>; menulis:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Individuals, or collectifs of individuals, are in an age of 
>>>>>>>>> the Internet. It is such a presence may be approached and 
>>>>>>>>> sensed by many ways --even when one said that s/he had just 
>>>>>>>>> eat a food which a receipt was gotten by communicating by the 
>>>>>>>>> Internet..
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Among others there are presences of "the Internet 
>>>>>>>>> Architecture", "Internet Governance and Technical Work" and 
>>>>>>>>> "Net History" as they represent interest-based mailing lists. 
>>>>>>>>> How could one get arrived into those matters (together) --such 
>>>>>>>>> a programmatic readership/learning: as sources and concepts 
>>>>>>>>> have history and discources collectives/net... ? Should we 
>>>>>>>>> imagine about information sources by making such a readership 
>>>>>>>>> based on the linkage between the three...? Thus we may say 
>>>>>>>>> about "The Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical 
>>>>>>>>> Works: a Net History" (to say "A Net History in Terms of The 
>>>>>>>>> Internet Architecture, Governance and Technical Work)...? 
>>>>>>>>> --there would be a discourse map on the special readership 
>>>>>>>>> which is about a co-presence of mailing lists...? --as one may 
>>>>>>>>> use search engines of each mailing list for related 
>>>>>>>>> interests...?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To make an engagement with the programme should we go with 
>>>>>>>>> such tentative journeys considering parts of the special 
>>>>>>>>> readership...?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> For example:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> By considering the reasoning above:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> To the question on "What is the Internet Architecture?" we may 
>>>>>>>>> refer to (archival) sources
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> "RFC 1958: Architectural Principles of the Internet"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Carpenter, Brian E. Ed, IAB, 1996)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc1958
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Note:)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It was a snapshot record of the principles of the Internet 
>>>>>>>>> Achitecture intended for general guidance and general 
>>>>>>>>> interest...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It was updated by RFC 3439...
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Both the concept "Internet Architecture" and the document RFC 
>>>>>>>>> 1958 have history bringing readers to other relevant 
>>>>>>>>> sources... They supposedly also give suggestions to come to 
>>>>>>>>> broader or other conceptual discourses on "governance and 
>>>>>>>>> technical work"
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regard,
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Guntur Wiseno Putra
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>