Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a module is needed as import-only or as implemented
Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> Mon, 02 March 2020 16:57 UTC
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To: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>
Cc: NETMOD WG <netmod@ietf.org>
References: <d3520549f06107de8939af24268f56f56683fbb0.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHRFQrXgGKB10B9MXbKa2vMfaY3eWaj5Sp4W0DPQ0F-pGQ@mail.gmail.com> <VI1PR07MB40472B4BEFB581AEE4F7C158F0230@VI1PR07MB4047.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com><20200107.143818.1928135118621633911.mbj@tail-f.com> <VI1PR07MB404773908BCA102EFBB6EE46F03F0@VI1PR07MB4047.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <e28ccc2b5b632d861dcdcc8b59184d1b81eb4406.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHQ5ps3SMfBiFatqN1R2MFbvY1WRyO9548nOZr1-GKuQ=g@mail.gmail.com> <bbc48da835fc0829dc179e89a8553095b1244677.camel@nic.cz> <CABCOCHR=qBJ=uKK29RP4ynumabeZiaWY-MM30VuG9fsQ6Rq95Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2020 17:57:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a module is needed as import-only or as implemented
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Sorry to resurrect this old email thread. To me, it's an important piece of information to know that ietf-netconf-acm is optional to implement. It seems that we have 3 potential places where to insert this information 1. The associated document. We could and should insert it into the RFC text. Drawback: Somehow the YANG module is looked at independently of the associated document 2. import-stmt: people on the list apparently don't like this 3. module description? What harm would it do if the description could contain this info? Regards, Benoit > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 5:44 AM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz > <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>> wrote: > > On Wed, 2020-01-08 at 04:49 -0800, Andy Bierman wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 1:11 AM Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz > <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>> wrote: > > > On Tue, 2020-01-07 at 14:29 +0000, Balázs Lengyel wrote: > > > > If that is the consensus, I can remove the description > statements, no big > > > > deal. (I actually like the statements, but they are not > important for this > > > > draft) > > > > > > Of course, it is not that important, but I don't see how this > information > > > could > > > be harmful, if it is included with the import. In my view, it > is not meant > > > as a > > > conformance requirement but just an info from the module > author about the > > > meaning of the import statement. > > > > > > > It adds a lot of extra work but more importantly the import-stmt > is the wrong > > place > > What work do you mean? I thought that it would be just info for > potential > developers (or their managers) that implementing the module requires > implementing other modules and functionality - or not. > > > > It is duplication because the individual data-def statements should > have any notes > about implementation requirements. The duplication may even be wrong. > E.g., in the module it says NACM is not required, but what if some objects > have NACM requirements listed in the Security Considerations section? > That is the RFC section to discuss NACM requirements. > > > For example, if a module imports ietf-netconf-nacm only for using > "node- > instance-identifier" type, it is relatively uninteresting. Otherwise, > implementation of the module may just be out of question. > > > > to document such a complex and unrelated issue as server conformance > > requirements. > > > > > > > The root of this problem (and design flaw of YANG, IMO) is > that import is > > > "overloaded" with two different purposes, one of which > effectively requires > > > that > > > the imported module be also implemented, while the other doesn't. > > > > > > > The import-stmt is only used to map a local prefix to an > external module. > > But one thing is using a prefix for accessing top-level types and > groupings > (i.e. stuff in YANG modules), and another thing is accessing > schema nodes, which > have to be present in the schema tree. In complicated data models, > it is not > exactly easy to figure out all these dependencies. > > > I do not agree these are different things. > In both cases the prefix is used to determine the imported module that > contains the identifier. > > > So maybe what is really overloaded are the namespace prefixes: > they are used for > addressing YANG modules, schema nodes and instances (in XPath). > > Lada > > > > Andy > > > > This proposal to add conformance info the the import-stmt would > overload it > > with > > another purpose. > > > > Not even a typedef is easy to classify (e.g., leafref requires > implementation > > of a data node). > > I certainly agree that YANG conformance is poorly specified, poorly > > understood, and > > in real need of improvement. Likewise, the import-stmt is also > in need of some > > improvement > > since import-by-exact-revision is (and has always been) poorly > designed. > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > Balazs > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com <mailto:mbj@tail-f.com>> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:38 PM > > > > To: Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com > <mailto:balazs.lengyel@ericsson.com>> > > > > Cc: andy@yumaworks.com <mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>; > lhotka@nic.cz <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>; netmod@ietf.org > <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a > module is > > > needed as > > > > import-only or as implemented > > > > > > > > Hi > > > > > > > > I agree w/ Andy and others that we should not add this to > the import's > > > > description. I don't think this kind of conformance text > belongs to the > > > > import's description. If you think it is important to state > this, the > > > best > > > > place is probably as plain text in the document itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > Balázs Lengyel <balazs.lengyel=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org > <mailto:40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote: > > > > > As a draft author who was asked to add text about the > imports IMHO > > > > > > > > > > * it would be easy for me to remove the description from > the import. > > > > > Actually I really just want to know what is acceptable to > the group, so > > > I > > > > > can proceed > > > > > * I also think that adding this text is in most cases > easy and it does > > > not > > > > > need updates later. > > > > > * The rules in some cases might not be trivial. > > > > > > > > > > * Imported YAMs need to be implemented if > > > > > > > > > > * Imported parts are included in Xpath (augment, when, > must, require- > > > > > instance) > > > > > > > > > > * Imported YAMs do not need to be implemented if only > the following > > > are > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > * Types > > > > > * Features > > > > > * extensions > > > > > > > > > > * Ambiguous if > > > > > > > > > > * groupings are used > > > > > * if the dependency is not formally defined by YANG, but > functionally > > > > > needed. (E.g. notification-capabilities does not formally > need YANG- > > > > > Push > > > to > > > > > be implemented, however there is no sense in defining > capabilities if > > > YANG- > > > > > Push is itself not implemented.) > > > > > * deviation ? > > > > > * other cases ? > > > > > > > > > > Regards Balazs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org > <mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Andy Bierman > > > > > Sent: 2019. december 19., csütörtök 17:23 > > > > > To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>> > > > > > Cc: NetMod WG <netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a > module is > > > > > needed as import-only or as implemented > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 8:00 AM Ladislav Lhotka > <lhotka@nic.cz <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz> <mailto: > > > > > lhotka@nic.cz <mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2019-12-19 at 07:52 +0000, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 08:23:27AM +0100, Ladislav > Lhotka wrote: > > > > > > > I don't see how YANG syntax defines this. If a module > imports > > > > > > > ietf-netconf- acm, it could be because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - it just uses a typedef, such as > "node-instance-identifier", and > > > then > > > > > > > ietf-netconf-acm needn't be implemented (but can be), > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - it augments ietf-netconf-acm, which makes sense only > if the latter > > > > > > > module is implemented. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It it the YANG library that specifies whether a module is > > > > > > > implemented or not, but the "import" statement itself > doesn't tell > > > you > > > > > > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can we not assume that an implementor will figure out > the difference? > > > > > > > > > > An implementor should be able to figure it out, but other > potential > > > > > module users may not. For example, if somebody is > evaluating whether > > > > > to use a module for their device or not, it is important > to know that > > > > > NACM has to be implemented (or not). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to be talking about a new conformance > documentation procedure > > > > > > > > > > that attempts to solve the problem "to use modules A, B, > and C > > > > > together > > > > > > > > > > to achieve some functionality X, all these conditions need > to be met".. > > > > > > > > > > (Sounds more like a problem for YANG Packages to solve) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > IMO this is a much harder problem than something that can > be solved > > > > > > > > > > with extra description-stmt text. The writer is likely to > get it wrong > > > > > or not > > > > > > > > > > keep it up to date, so a tool to analyze the file seems > like a better > > > > > solution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lada > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or someone writes a pyang plugin to determine from the > schema tree > > > > > > the kind of imports there are (for a given set of features). > > > > > > > > > > > > /js > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Ladislav Lhotka > > > > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > > > > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > <mailto:netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org>> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > > -- > Ladislav Lhotka > Head, CZ.NIC Labs > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org <mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > _______________________________________________ > netmod mailing list > netmod@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Balázs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Martin Bjorklund
- [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a mod… Balázs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Schönwälder
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Balázs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Benoit Claise
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Schönwälder, Jürgen
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Benoit Claise
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Balázs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Balázs Lengyel
- Re: [netmod] Text in import to indicate whether a… Andy Bierman