Re: [netmod] WG adoption poll for draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-00

Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> Thu, 11 October 2018 02:20 UTC

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From: Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 19:20:00 -0700
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To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>
Cc: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] WG adoption poll for draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-00
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On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 6:39 PM, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> wrote:

> Hi Alex, no objection.
>
> My support withdraw appears to put me in the rough, which is fine from a
> process perspective.  But make no mistake, I think that it's bizaar for a
> "diff" to not show both values.  Andy's idea to augment in an 'old-value'
> node seems like a step in the right direction.
>
>
The requirements and use-cases have not really been discussed first.
If the use-case is for humans to compare the datastores (e.g., a
side-by-side diff like an I-D)
then the format would be very different than if the use-case was more
programmatic
(e.g., look for no diffs, look for an edit completed, patch a local copy).


> Kent // contributor
>

Andy


>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
> Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2018 at 6:06 PM
> To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>, Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>,
> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder <
> j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>
> Subject: RE: [netmod] WG adoption poll for draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-00
>
> Which format to make mandatory sounds like something we can discuss in
> Bangkok.  The reason YANG-patch was chosen is reuse, although it is
> certainly conceivable to develop another format.  (Per discussion on the
> list we will put the hooks in place to allow for other options.)  Either
> way, this seems to be one of the technical details that need to be decided,
> not something that would make or break support as a whole?
> --- Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Kent Watsen [mailto:kwatsen@juniper.net]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2018 10:17 AM
> > To: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>; Ladislav Lhotka
> > <lhotka@nic.cz>; Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>; Juergen
> > Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; netmod@ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: [netmod] WG adoption poll for draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-
> 00
> >
> > I agree that a mandatory to implement format is desirable.
> >
> > I disagree that YANG-Patch is the right format, for reasons stated
> before.  I feel
> > that a compromise of this sort for a mandatory-to-implement is wrong.
> >
> > If this is what the WG wants, I withdraw my support.
> >
> > Kent // contributor
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Alexander Clemm <alexander.clemm@huawei.com>
> > Date: Monday, October 8, 2018 at 5:05 PM
> > To: Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz>, Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>,
> > Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com>, Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "netmod@ietf.org"
> > <netmod@ietf.org>
> > Subject: RE: [netmod] WG adoption poll for draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-
> 00
> >
> > I would second the request for one format (which is mandatory to
> support),
> > which must be specified.  YANG-Patch is the logical candidate IMHO.
> >
> > To allow selection of other formats using an input parameter makes
> sense, but
> > adds some complexity from there:  How to know which formats are
> supported?
> > (Add a list of supported formats somewhere?)   Or simply rely on
> augmentation
> > for those implementations that want it?
> >
> > --- Alex
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: netmod [mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ladislav
> > > Lhotka
> > > Sent: Friday, October 05, 2018 12:50 AM
> > > To: Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net>; Andy Bierman
> > > <andy@yumaworks.com>; Juergen Schoenwaelder <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> > > university.de>; netmod@ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: [netmod] WG adoption poll for
> > > draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-00
> > >
> > > Kent Watsen <kwatsen@juniper.net> writes:
> > >
> > > > Sure, one mandatory to implement format, others nice to have.
> > > > Interoperability good.  Agreed.
> > > >
> > > > But why YANG-patch and not something built for the purpose (e.g.,
> > > > YANG-diff) that, in particular, provides an actual diff as opposed
> > > > to a data-tree operation that only shows one of the two values?
> > >
> > > Such a format can be developed independently, I would support it.
> > >
> > > Lada
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Kent // contributor
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 10/4/18, 3:27 PM, "Andy Bierman"
> > > <andy@yumaworks.com<mailto:andy@yumaworks.com>> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Juergen Schoenwaelder
> > > <j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de<mailto:j.schoenwaelder@jacobs-
> > > university.de>> wrote:
> > > > Folks, the more formats there are, the less interoperability we get.
> > > > If there are multiple formats, is there a mandatory to implement
> > > > format? Does the mandatory to implement format depend on the
> > > > protocol that is being used?
> > > >
> > > > I prefer one format or if necessary I am fine with one mandatory to
> > > > implement format. An open ended collection of implementation
> > > > specific formats is super flexible but defeats the purpose of a
> > > > standard, namely interoperability.
> > > >
> > > > I agree there needs to be 1 mandatory-to-implement format.
> > > >
> > > > IMO this needs to be YANG Patch because it is more precise then
> > > > constructing an XML tree with operation attributes in it (e.g., how
> > > > else do you represent a delete or a move?) Also, YANG Push is using
> > > > YANG Patch format and common code for push and diff would be
> possible.
> > > >
> > > > I think other formats should be allowed.
> > > > This is very tool-specific. I could see how somebody might want a
> > > > textual patch of the XML representation to produce the new XML
> > > representation.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > /js
> > > >
> > > > Andy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 05:41:22PM +0000, Kent Watsen wrote:
> > > >> We agree that the diff-format should be client-selectable, modulo
> > > >> what the
> > > server supports.  yang-patch and edit-config both are viable.  Should
> > > we document them both?
> > > >>
> > > >> That said, since neither edit-config nor yang-patch are diffing
> > > >> formats, so
> > > much as formats for converting one data tree to another, would it make
> > > sense to define an actual diffing format?  I would think that a diff
> > > would provide both values, not just a new value.
> > > >>
> > > >> Kent // contributor
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: netmod
> > > >> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf
> > > >> of Ladislav Lhotka <lhotka@nic.cz<mailto:lhotka@nic.cz>>
> > > >> Organization: CZ.NIC
> > > >> Date: Thursday, October 4, 2018 at 1:11 PM
> > > >> To: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>>,
> > > >> "netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>"
> > > >> <netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>>
> > > >> Subject: Re: [netmod] WG adoption poll for
> > > >> draft-clemm-netmod-nmda-diff-00
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 14:17 +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > > >> >
> > > >> > On 04/10/2018 13:51, Ladislav Lhotka wrote:
> > > >> > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 13:36 +0100, Robert Wilton wrote:
> > > >> > > > On 04/10/2018 11:14, Martin Bjorklund wrote:
> > > >> > > > > Phil Shafer <phil@juniper.net<mailto:phil@juniper.net>>
> wrote:
> > > >> > > > > > Bal?zs Lengyel writes:
> > > >> > > > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__to
> > > >> > > > > > > ol
> > > >> > > > > > > s.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dclemm-2Dnetmod-2Dnmda-2Ddiff-2D
> > > >> > > > > > > 00
> > > >> > > > > > > &d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > =9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=7s6VdzzH9O
> > > >> > > > > > >
> > > l3BOCbVLBarBrQ5fD0vTt8k_I2KDEN97c&s=gQWJtjc_2EF3QgRvABgZK
> > > >> > > > > > > sjqzuIw9yUq_xee6aFJOcw&e=
> > > >> > > > > > [I've moved to a "deep lurker" role here, but ...]
> > > >> > > > > >
> > > >> > > > > > Can we ensure this model contains a "format" leaf in the
> RPC's
> > input
> > > >> > > > > > so that future (and proprietary) formats can be
> supported?   That
> > > >> > > > > > leaf can be an identityref that defaults to yang-patch.
> > > >> > > > > I think this is a good idea.  I would prefer the
> > > >> > > > > edit-config format over YANG patch for describing a diff.
> > > >> > > > > The edit-config format is more suited for this purpose imo.
> > > >> > > > +1
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > I would like something closer to edit-config to be available
> > > >> > > > via RESTCONF as well.
> > > >> > > YANG Patch is IMO better because it clearly separates the
> > > >> > > target for the edits from the new content.
> > > >> > > In edit-config these two are mixed together.
> > > >> > Yes, that is primarily why I prefer the edit-config.  I perceive
> > > >> > that it is a denser and more efficient format.  I think that it
> > > >> > is both easier to construct (when diffing two trees) and also
> > > >> > more efficient to apply when generating an updated tree.
> > > >>
> > > >> Except for certain corner cases, for example if two trees differ
> > > >> only in the value of a single leaf but this leaf happens to be a
> list key.
> > > >>
> > > >> Lada
> > > >>
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Thanks,
> > > >> > Rob
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > That being said, I support specifying format/media-type and
> > > >> > > having potentially multiple options.
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > Lada
> > > >> > >
> > > >> > > > Thanks,
> > > >> > > > Rob
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > >
> > > >> > > > > /martin
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > > > netmod mailing list
> > > >> > > > > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > > >> > > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ie
> > > >> > > > > tf
> > > >> > > > >
> > > .org_mailman_listinfo_netmod&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0U
> > > >> > > > > jBXeMK-
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjIS
> > > >> > > > >
> > > laJdcZo&m=7s6VdzzH9Ol3BOCbVLBarBrQ5fD0vTt8k_I2KDEN97c&s=RVJcg
> > > >> > > > > 5pzHW-zi1OboCL4SX2huW9euHiVRSCor9n_APQ&e=
> > > >> > > > > .
> > > >> > > > >
> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > >> > > > netmod mailing list
> > > >> > > > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > > >> > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf
> > > >> > > > .o
> > > >> > > >
> > > rg_mailman_listinfo_netmod&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe
> > > >> > > > MK-
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZ
> > > >> > > >
> > > o&m=7s6VdzzH9Ol3BOCbVLBarBrQ5fD0vTt8k_I2KDEN97c&s=RVJcg5pzHW-zi
> > > >> > > > 1OboCL4SX2huW9euHiVRSCor9n_APQ&e=
> > > >> --
> > > >> Ladislav Lhotka
> > > >> Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > >> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> netmod mailing list
> > > >> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_m
> > > >> ai
> > > >> lman_listinfo_netmod&d=DwICAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > ndb3voDTX
> > > >>
> > >
> > cWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=7s6VdzzH9Ol3
> > > BO
> > > >> CbVLBarBrQ5fD0vTt8k_I2KDEN97c&s=RVJcg5pzHW-
> > > zi1OboCL4SX2huW9euHiVRSCor
> > > >> 9n_APQ&e=
> > > >>
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> netmod mailing list
> > > >> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>
> > > >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_m
> > > >> ailman_listinfo_netmod&d=DwIFAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3v
> > > >>
> > oDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=DM1jsw
> > nM
> > > >> 48GwdI4tez-Jtf2ua2jvtLZVKfiwkbwbIrU&s=g0x_B-
> > Xez7tD9hLX71D5vlcHdZohn
> > > >> TkiMVIKJhAHivk&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > >> 3A__urldefense.proof&d=DwIFAg&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > ndb3voD
> > > >>
> > TXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=DM1jswnM
> > 48
> > > >> GwdI4tez-
> > Jtf2ua2jvtLZVKfiwkbwbIrU&s=bzLaLoBCJ88laveupLqapYN4btjEBBv
> > > >> NENNy09Tsooc&e=
> > > >> point.com/v2/url?u=https-
> > > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_netmod&d=D
> > > >> wMFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-
> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9E
> > > >> PoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=O7d-
> > > b9gyPvsasJo1ueKk3doDH7f5S5WQLo8_W6
> > > >> W3qt4&s=5LHhbfQZeoqYlC40T3mm-AEz4rSsyRWYjqTK7LuWTPw&e=>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> > > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen |
> Germany
> > > > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103
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> > > 7d-
> > >
> > b9gyPvsasJo1ueKk3doDH7f5S5WQLo8_W6W3qt4&s=zh7qEPSmwviaSqZBqG1Gc
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> > Xez7tD9hLX71D5vlcHdZohnTkiM
> > > > VIKJhAHivk&e=<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__u
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> > ndb3voDTXcWz
> > > >
> > oCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=DM1jswnM48Gwd
> > I4t
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> > fUq3YfsIkHooz5RtXYso
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> > > ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoO
> > > > H7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=O7d-
> > > b9gyPvsasJo1ueKk3doDH7f5S5WQLo8_W6W3qt
> > > > 4&s=5LHhbfQZeoqYlC40T3mm-AEz4rSsyRWYjqTK7LuWTPw&e=>
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> > TXcWzoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=DM1jswnM
> > 48G
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> > >
> > > --
> > > Ladislav Lhotka
> > > Head, CZ.NIC Labs
> > > PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67
> > >
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> > zoCI&r=9zkP0xnJUvZGJ9EPoOH7Yhqn2gsBYaGTvjISlaJdcZo&m=DM1jswnM48Gw
> > dI4te
> > > z-Jtf2ua2jvtLZVKfiwkbwbIrU&s=g0x_B-
> > Xez7tD9hLX71D5vlcHdZohnTkiMVIKJhAHi
> > > vk&e=
>
>
>