Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? module naming convention for NMDA transition. Re: upcoming adoptions
Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> Fri, 06 October 2017 16:01 UTC
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, bclaise@cisco.com
Cc: andy@yumaworks.com, acee@cisco.com, netmod@ietf.org, rtg-dt-yang-arch@ietf.org
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From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 17:01:46 +0100
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Subject: Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? module naming convention for NMDA transition. Re: upcoming adoptions
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On 06/10/2017 16:32, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > Benoit Claise <bclaise@cisco.com> wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> [including the routing and multicast YANG design teams] >> Can we please finalize the discussion regarding ietf-routing versus >> ietf-routing-2, sooner than later. >> >> I care about the NMDA transition strategy. >> >> Here are all the ietf-routing dependent YANG modules (those modules >> that depend on ietf-routing) >> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-routing&recurse=0&rfcs=1&show_subm=1&show_dir=dependents >> So many YANG modules. >> >> Look at the difference for ietf-routing-2: >> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-routing-2&recurse=0&rfcs=1&show_subm=1&show_dir=dependents >> Some dependent modules are compliant with ietf-routing-2, the >> multicast YANG modules, but these are the only ones. >> >> Changing the module name from ietf-routing to ietf-routing-2 implies >> that the we have to warn all draft authors of ietf-routing YANG >> dependent modules: >> 1. to make sure they are aware of ietf-routing-2 (publishing a >> RFC8022bis mentioning in the module description that this module is >> not compatible with the NMDA architecture, and providing a pointer to >> ietf-routing-2 ... is not an automatic way... so barely useful) >> 2. to ask them to change their import to ietf-routing-2 >> Hopefully, in the routing case, it's mainly the IETF. >> I'm glad that we didn't change the ietf-interfaces to >> ietf-interfaces-2, we would have to deal with cross >> SDO/consortia/opensource project issues >> Note: >> >> we're in a transition phase today, while we implement the >> soon-to-be-published draft-clacla-netmod-model-catalog-02 >> Because of this, the SDO/consortia/opensource dependent YANG modules >> will only appear in the Impact Analysis tomorrow at >> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/impact_analysis.php?modules[]=ietf-interfaces&recurse=0&rfcs=1&show_subm=1&show_dir=dependents >> In the mean time, you can see all these dependent modules >> Ex: >> https://www.yangcatalog.org/yang-search/module_details.php?module=ietf-interfaces >> => click on "dependents" >> Those dependent modules is a new feature of >> draft-clacla-netmod-model-catalog-02 >> >> >> I'm wondering if this NMDA transition hurdle doesn't make a good >> justification to keep the same module name! >> We could debate whether ietf-routing is implemented or not, but the >> point is moot: we don't know what we don't know. > Agreed. I think there are no real reasons for keeping the module name > and deprecate the old defintiions. Yes, it adds some noise to the > module but the fact is that we do deprecate all these defintions, and > I think we should not hide that. This is also my preferred option. I would like to just deprecate these nodes now, and then (for the routing module that is unlikely to have been widely implement) update it again in a 1-2 years time to remove the deprecated nodes (we can warn now that they will get removed). Conversely, for ietf interfaces (which is much more likely to be widely implemented), I think that they should move to obsolete after 1-2 years and then hopefully be removed 1-2 years after that. Thanks, Rob > > > /martin > > > >> Regarding one point made by Andy: >> >> I should explain the use-case for identifying NMDA vs. >> NMDA-transition modules. >> I do not want to present both types (for a given module) to the user. >> So the tools need to know in "NMDA mode" which modules are duplicates >> for NMDA-transition purpose only, so those modules can be hidden >> from the user. >> In "legacy mode" the NMDA modules would be hidden and the transition >> modules >> would be exposed to the user instead. >> >> Guessing which is which will only cause unhappy customers so we will >> force >> vendors to tag the modules with our own YANG extensions to tell them >> apart. >> >> We recognized this use case and tagged the YANG module "tree-type" in >> the YANG catalog. >> In the soon-to-be-published but already implemented >> draft-clacla-netmod-model-catalog-02 draft, you will see: >> >> leaf tree-type { >> type enumeration { >> enum "split" { >> description >> "This module uses a split config/operational state layout."; >> } >> enum "nmda-compatible" { >> description >> "This module is compatible with the Network Management >> Datastores >> Architecture (NMDA) and combines config and operational state >> nodes."; >> } >> enum "transitional-extra" { >> description >> "This module is derived as a '-state' module to allow for >> transitioning >> to a full NMDA-compliant tree structure."; >> } >> enum "openconfig" { >> description >> "This module uses the Openconfig data element layout."; >> } >> enum "unclassified" { >> description >> "This module does not belong to any category or can't be >> determined."; >> } >> enum "not-applicable" { >> description >> "This module is not applicable. For example, because the YANG >> module only contains typedefs, groupings, or is a submodule"; >> } >> } >> description >> "The type of data element tree used by the module as it relates to >> the >> Network Management Datastores Architecture."; >> reference "draft-dsdt-nmda-guidelines Guidelines for YANG Module >> Authors (NMDA)"; >> } >> description >> "Grouping of YANG module metadata that extends the common list >> defined in the YANG >> Module Library (RFC 7895)."; >> } >> >> >> If not convinced already, I hope that you start to see the YANG >> catalog value for the industry. >> Let's keep in mind that automation is key. Therefore, YANG modules >> without module details (metadata) and related tools is not sufficient >> for the industry. >> >> Regards, Benoit >>> Andy Bierman <andy@yumaworks.com> writes: >>> >>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 15/09/2017 16:23, Andy Bierman wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> So are you saying the NMDA transition strategy should be ignored? >>>>> >>>>> My personal preference for the routing modules would be to keep the >>>>> same >>>>> module name and deprecate the old nodes. >>>>> >>>>> However, I doubt that there are many implementations of this 8022 yet, >>>>> and >>>>> if the authors prefer to use a new namespace without the old nodes >>>>> then I'm >>>>> fine with that also. Are you opposed to this approach? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> A new module name mandates a new namespace, so they go together. >>>> Abandoning the old module is fine, except leaving that module with >>>> status >>>> "current" is not fine. >>>> IMO you need to republish the old module as well, with everything >>>> status >>>> obsolete. >>> I don't agree with this. The "status" tag is justified for subsequent >>> revisions of the same module so as to aid old clients. >>> >>> But if the module name and namespace URI are different, there is no >>> such >>> concern. Modules contained in RFCs 7223, 8022 etc. just define some >>> schemas that happen to be good for my purposes. So I want to be able >>> to >>> continue using them, and don't want tools to issue useless warnings or >>> even refuse to process such modules. >>> >>> I am fine though with making a new revision of ietf-routing >>> etc. mentioning in the module description that this module is not >>> compatible with the NMDA architecture, and providing a pointer to >>> ietf-routing-2. >>> >>> Lada >>> >>>> >>>>> E.g. For ietf-interfaces, and ietf-ip, which are older, and hence >>>>> probably >>>>> much more widely implemented then I think that the modules should be >>>>> updated in place with the existing state tree deprecated. I.e. I >>>>> support >>>>> what Martin has done in his IDs, and don't want this to change. >>>>> >>>>> What is the problem with deprecated nodes? >>>>> >>>>> Nothing really, but I guess that they are likely to be baggage that is >>>>> going to be around for a long time even if very few people ever >>>>> implement >>>>> the deprecated nodes. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Why aren't you following your own transition strategy? >>>>> >>>>> Really because I'm not an author, both solutions seem valid, and I >>>>> actually think just reaching a conclusion quickly is more important >>>>> than >>>>> which particular solution is chosen. I don't see any advantage is >>>>> pushing >>>>> back the adoption call - it seems like it will probably just delay >>>>> when we >>>>> can do WG LC. >>>>> >>>>> I actually think that the bigger question that needs to be resolved is >>>>> whether we need an optional extension to mark a module as NMDA >>>>> compatible, >>>>> or for the extra NMDA state module, as I think that both you and Tom >>>>> have >>>>> been asking for. >>>>> >>>> I am no fan of YANG conformance. >>>> The WG does not seem to understand the difference between >>>> (A) what a server is supposed to do >>>> (B) what a server claims to do >>>> >>>> There is no way to express (A) in a YANG module, just (B) in the new >>>> yang-library. >>>> >>>> >>>> Andy >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Rob >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Andy >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 8:01 AM, Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 15/09/2017 15:52, Acee Lindem (acee) wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> With respect to WG adoption, we will do whatever the WG decides for >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> RFC 8022 model. We have a strong preference toward not carrying the >>>>>>> deprecated nodes forward and new module versions appears to be a good >>>>>>> way >>>>>>> to achieve this. >>>>>>> >>>>>> Can we not adopt regardless? We know that we are going to bis 8022, >>>>>> and >>>>>> having an adopted draft gives it a bit more legitimacy and helps other >>>>>> folks to migrate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or perhaps we can start the call for adoption and continue to try and >>>>>> resolve this issue at the same time ;-). I think that it would be >>>>>> good to >>>>>> try and get the updated model drafts to WG LC by Singapore. >>>>>> >>>>>> I know that it hasn't been asked yet, but I support adoption of any >>>>>> 8022 >>>>>> bis draft that (i) provides the correct NDMA combined tree (ii) >>>>>> removes or >>>>>> deprecates the old state nodes :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry, if I'm being pushy :-) >>>>>> Rob >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with Lada that deprecating all the schema nodes is >>>>>>> unnecessary. >>>>>>> However, we’ll do what it takes to reach consensus and satisfy the >>>>>>> most >>>>>>> pedantic among us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Acee >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 9/15/17, 6:38 AM, "netmod on behalf of Ladislav Lhotka" >>>>>>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lhotka@nic.cz> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kent Watsen píše v Čt 14. 09. 2017 v 14:52 +0000: >>>>>>>>> rfc8022bis-02 signals the intent to ditch the >>>>>>>>> current/soon-to-be-legacy >>>>>>>>> module, but does it actually say it? (I can't find it) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The modules contained therein have different names and namespaces, so >>>>>>>> there is >>>>>>>> no formal ancestry. I would prefer to keep the modules from RFC 8022 >>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> they are >>>>>>>> - some weirdos may still want to use them. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The draft does say that it obsoletes 8022, but I'm unsure if that's >>>>>>>>> going to >>>>>>>>> have a meaningful impact in the wild. I think Juergen said they had >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> issue with MIB2 and only after a couple years of misuse did they >>>>>>>>> republish the >>>>>>>>> legacy MIBs with deprecated status. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm okay with this change being made after adoption, so long as >>>>>>>>> there's >>>>>>>>> general agreement to do it. Are the authors okay with it, or are >>>>>>>>> there >>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>> better suggestions? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> PS: Sadly, the 'module' statement does not have 'status' as a >>>>>>>>> substatement [I >>>>>>>>> just added this omission to the yang-next tracker]. I think the only >>>>>>>>> way to >>>>>>>>> "deprecate a module" is to instead deprecate the all the >>>>>>>>> nodes/rpcs/notifications in the module. Kind of ugly, but it's for a >>>>>>>>> deprecated module, so who care, right? ;) >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it is unnecessary. If somebody needs adding such a module to >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> data >>>>>>>> model, he/she should probably have a reason to do so, such as data >>>>>>>> implemented >>>>>>>> on the server. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lada >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kent >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Rob, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 9/14/2017 9:37 AM, Robert Wilton wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi Kent & Lou, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> When do you think that it will be possible to start the adoption >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> process >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> on these drafts? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that the first two at least would seem to be ready for >>>>>>>>>> adoption. For the 3rd draft, there still seems to be an open >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> question >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> of what to do with the old state tree, but presumably that could be >>>>>>>>>> solved after the draft has been adopted? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I see an update for the third was published yesterday >>>>>>>>> (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-acee-netmod-rfc8022bis-02) that >>>>>>>>> clarifies the intent is to replace the current modules, and presumably >>>>>>>>> obsolete 8022. And now that this intended direction is clear in the >>>>>>>>> draft we could poll it. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think this still doesn't address if we need to indicate that the >>>>>>>>> rfc8022 defined modules are deprecated by some other mechanisms than >>>>>>>>> just replacing the RFC, e.g., by updating the old modules with all >>>>>>>>> nodes >>>>>>>>> marked as deprecated. I think you're right that this could be done >>>>>>>>> post >>>>>>>>> adoption. Of course others are free to disagree. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I check with Kent and see what he thinks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Lou >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> Rob >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 30/08/2017 00:46, Kent Watsen wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hey folks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As discussed at the last meeting, we are heading to revising >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> existing RFCs >>>>>>>>>> to align them with NMDA. The first batch have been published as >>>>>>>>>>> individual drafts: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjorklund-netmod-rfc7223bis-00 >>>>>>>>>>> 2. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bjorklund-netmod-rfc7277bis-00 >>>>>>>>>>> 3. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-acee-netmod-rfc8022bis-00 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Please take a look (comments welcome!) and stay tuned for the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> related >>>>>>>>>> adoption calls. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> Kent (and Lou) >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Ladislav Lhotka >>>>>>>> Head, CZ.NIC Labs >>>>>>>> PGP Key ID: 0xB8F92B08A9F76C67 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> netmod mailing list >>>>>> netmod@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod >>>>>> >>>>>
- [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? module n… Benoit Claise
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Randy Presuhn
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Benoit Claise
- [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Benoit Claise
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions t.petch
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Juergen Schoenwaelder
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Acee Lindem (acee)
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… t.petch
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Andy Bierman
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions Ladislav Lhotka
- Re: [netmod] upcoming adoptions - this appendix i… Lou Berger
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Benoit Claise
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] ietf-routing or ietf-routing-2? modu… Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] [Rtg-dt-yang-arch] ietf-routing or i… Lou Berger