Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes?
Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com> Mon, 04 March 2019 13:39 UTC
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To: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>, adrian@olddog.co.uk
Cc: joelja@bogus.com, netmod@ietf.org
References: <8ddf74d483674c598e52ece716f70d0a@XCH-RCD-007.cisco.com> <20190304.124912.231750494593528236.mbj@tail-f.com> <0a8601d4d283$f13b2180$d3b16480$@olddog.co.uk> <20190304.141630.1246282625623673890.mbj@tail-f.com>
From: Robert Wilton <rwilton@cisco.com>
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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2019 13:39:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes?
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On 04/03/2019 13:16, Martin Bjorklund wrote: > "Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: >> We can go round and round š >> >> How do I fold >> foo bar baz buzz >> so that it can be unfolded? >> >> Clearly a possibility is >> foo bar baz \ >> buzz >> >> But what if the line length would break in the white space? >> You could solve it as >> foo bar \ >> baz buzz >> which requires slightly more complex folding. >> >> Actually, this case arises more often than you might think when the >> line length would cause a fold before a single space. >> Thus, if the line length is 11 >> foo bar baz buzz >> ..would fold as... >> foo bar baz\ >> buzz >> ...and unfold as... >> foo bar bazbuzz >> ...if leading spaces are stripped. >> >> And if leading spaces are not stripped then we cannot handle manual >> padding for reasons of visual formatting. For example... >> foo bar baz\ >> buzz >> >> Personally, I am *really* struggling to understand why we cannot use >> the two-slash approach only. > Maybe b/c if we do, people will start to use it and write things > like: > > "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages/ietf-routing@v\ > \1.3.1.json", > "description": "This package defines a small sample set of I\ > \ETF routing YANG modules that could represent the set of IETF routi\ > \ng functionality that a basic IP network device might be expected t\ > \o support.", > > > I know, it can easily be re-written into: > > "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages\ > \/ietf-routing@v1.3.1.json", > "description": "This package defines a small sample set \ > \of IETF routing YANG modules that could \ > \represent the set of IETF routing \ > \functionality that a basic IP network \ > \device might be expected to support.", > > which is almost as readable as: > > "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages\ > /ietf-routing@v1.3.1.json", > "description": "This package defines a small sample set \ > of IETF routing YANG modules that could \ > represent the set of IETF routing \ > functionality that a basic IP network \ > device might be expected to support.", If I was fixing this by hand then I would probably get to this instead: "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages/ietf-routing@v\ \1.3.1.json", "description": "This package defines a small sample set of \ \IETF routing YANG modules that could represent the set of IETF \ \routing functionality that a basic IP network device might be \ \expected to support.", I think that for the rest of that example (pages 34-37 of draft-rwilton-netmod-yang-packages-00), I think that the folding works pretty well, and the output is reasonably readable. Thanks, Rob > > /martin > > >> Cheers, >> Adrian >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> >> Sent: 04 March 2019 11:49 >> To: rwilton@cisco.com >> Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; joelja@bogus.com; netmod@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? >> >> "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote: >>> But this behaviour is still different from the frequently used meaning >>> of ā\ā today in programming languages, which as I know it just splits >>> lines and preserves whitespace. >> Right, but we're not doing a programming language, we try to fit long >> lines in examples into the format required by RFCs, including >> indentation. For example, suppose you have: >> >> Here's an example: >> >> foo bar baz \ >> buzz >> >> Unfolded, do you think this is: >> >> foo bar baz buzz >> >> or >> >> foo bar baz buzz >> >> >>> YANG requires a separator character between a keyword and its >>> argument. What happens if the tool happens to split the line between >>> the two of them. >>> >>> >>> >>> E.g >>> >>> container\ >>> >>> test >>> >>> >>> >>> After the artwork folding, this would become >>> >>> containertest >>> >>> >>> >>> This could be mitigated by a smarter folding tool (e.g. split before >>> the ārā or after the first space). >> >> 1. Don't use a tool to add line breaks - remember the goal was to >> have a readable example. >> >> 2. Don't use this alg. for YANG modules, since YANG has builtin / >> native support for splitting long lines. >> >> >>> Or, what if the tool was being used to fold a table that was using >>> whitespace to align the columns. This could easily break if >>> whitespace is stripped. >> Don't use this alg for tables (or ascii art in general) -- it won't >> help readers. >> >> >> /martin >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Rob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> >>> Sent: 04 March 2019 08:40 >>> To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> >>> Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; joelja@bogus.com; netmod@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? >>> >>> >>> >>> "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Adrian, >>>> I mostly agree with your last sentence. >>>> I think that if you always preserve whitespace then a single slash is >>>> fine. I.e. the single slash just breaks the line, and I think that >>>> this matches how editors, programming languages, etc normally behave. >>>> What Iām not keen on is using a single slash, and then automatically >>>> stripping leading whitespace on the line following a slash. >>> >>> >>> And this is the solution that I prefer. The reason for this is that I >>> view examples as something that is there to illustrate some point to >>> the reader, and I think that a prettier formatted example with less >>> noise helps the reader. I also think that is most cases, this works >>> well; i.e., most cases are _not_ on the form: >>> >>> >>> >>> 12345 78990 >>> >>> ^-------------- I need a line break here >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> For this problem, I prefer a solution that is intuitive and has less >>> noise and works for 90% of the cases, than a less intuitive solution >>> with more noise that works for 100% of the cases. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> /martin >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> If we want to have control of layout and be able to strip extra >>>> whitespace then my argument is that it is better to be explicit, and >>>> using two slashes is one way of achieving this. >>>> Thanks, >>>> Rob >>>> From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> >>>> On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel >>>> Sent: 27 February 2019 09:41 >>>> To: 'Joel Jaeggli' <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>> >>>> Cc: netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? >>>> Complete agreement, Joel. >>>> What follows may look better in proportional fonts. >>>> With a single slash we can wrap as follows >>>> 1234567 9012345 >>>> Goes toā¦ >>>> 1234567 \ >>>> 9012345 >>>> ā¦and unwrapping is easy. >>>> However, if I want to manually wrap the line with indentation >>>> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog >>>> ..going toā¦ >>>> The quick brown fox\ >>>> jumps over the lazy dog >>>> ā¦I am going to unfold asā¦ >>>> The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog >>>> Conversely, if I resolve this second case by stripping leading spaces >>>> I getā¦ >>>> The quick brown foxjumps over the lazy dog >>>> So I have to fold asā¦ >>>> The quick brown fox \ >>>> jumps over the lazy dog >>>> But this causes the first case to unfold as >>>> 1234567 9012345 >>>> ā¦i.e., with missing spaces. >>>> This is what caused the use of the second slash soā¦ >>>> 1234567 \ >>>> \ 9012345 >>>> ā¦andā¦ >>>> The quick brown fox\ >>>> \ jumps over the lazy dog >>>> So, my point is, if and only if we do not care about these āspaces on >>>> the foldā cases, we can operate with a single slash. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Adrian >>>> From: Joel Jaeggli >>>> <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com%3cmailto:joelja@bogus.com>>> >>>> Sent: 27 February 2019 06:31 >>>> To: Adrian Farrel >>>> <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk%3cmailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>> >>>> Cc: Kent Watsen >>>> <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net%3cmailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>>; >>>> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> >>>> Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? >>>> On Feb 26, 2019, at 14:26, Adrian Farrel >>>> <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk%3cmailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> Hey. >>>> Iāve been having this discussion with Kent off-line, but thought it >>>> should come to the list. >>>> I donāt think it is a good idea to have two approaches. While it would >>>> be relatively easy to code for both approaches, it seems to add a >>>> degree of confusion if both have to be handled by the same code >>>> (consider deciding whether leading space characters are to be retained >>>> or not, something that can only be decided when the first non-space >>>> character is found), or by having different code for the two different >>>> cases. >>>> It doesnāt seem to me that both cases are needed. We can pick one or >>>> the other. >>>> A single slash has been used to wrap long lines in editors and shells >>>> for decades at this point. >>>> and yeah whatever it is one method seems better than two. >>>> And *if* we want to allow manual folding so that indents can be made >>>> to make the document more human-readable then we have to use a leading >>>> ā\ā on continuation lines to show which spaces should be stripped and >>>> which retained. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Adrian >>>> From: netmod >>>> <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>>> >>>> On Behalf Of Kent Watsen >>>> Sent: 25 February 2019 22:22 >>>> To: >>>> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> >>>> Subject: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? >>>> I had a chat with the tools team recently and, in the course of >>>> things, it was implied that the double backslash approach we have now >>>> was both surprising and non-intuitive. >>>> This got me thinking that we may have thrown the proverbial baby out >>>> with the bathwater. >>>> That is, currently we have a header that reads: >>>> NOTE: '\\' line wrapping per BCP XX (RFC XXXX) >>>> So why not *also* support a header that reads (note the singe slash): >>>> NOTE: '\' line wrapping per BCP XX (RFC XXXX) >>>> Whereby this second form only supports the folded line continuing on >>>> column 1 (no indents). >>>> Thoughts? >>>> Kent // contributor >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> netmod mailing list >>>> netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod
- [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen