[netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis
mohamed.boucadair@orange.com Wed, 02 October 2024 14:14 UTC
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To: Reshad Rahman <reshad@yahoo.com>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net>
Thread-Topic: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis
Thread-Index: AQHbFHN7ztje/L3xWEuMHCNEi5GpqbJzgAMg
Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2024 14:14:10 +0000
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References: <0100018f4e31af70-fd072689-4a32-4547-b32c-ce06781df2b5-000000@email.amazonses.com> <0100019211083dbf-15ebf66a-653f-487c-b15e-15380177c80f-000000@email.amazonses.com> <e607aa67-7c53-419c-aa5f-30c74aae7d96@labn.net> <DU2PR02MB101600DEE6F92ED7C4F88709988772@DU2PR02MB10160.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com> <d7df2a1d-3105-4707-8d9b-fb4aa44695a9@labn.net> <0100019249bc3e07-9324d29f-5539-4c1d-b828-5e9950af4197-000000@email.amazonses.com> <1715361927.7958008.1727836400936@mail.yahoo.com>
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CC: "netmod@ietf.org" <netmod@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis@ietf.org>
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Subject: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis
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Hi Reshad, The current text in the bis does not change the guidance for short/moderate trees (1-5 pages, typically). The question is specifically about long trees with or without folding. Cheers, Med De : Reshad Rahman <reshad@yahoo.com> Envoyé : mercredi 2 octobre 2024 04:33 À : Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net> Cc : netmod@ietf.org; draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis@ietf.org Objet : Re: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Hi, Commenting on the following: html version can include SVG diagrams (e.g. https://www.rfc-editor.org/authors/rfc9633.html) so I don't see why it couldn't include a text diagram :-) But yes asking the RFC editor is the best couse of action. Furthermore, I'm not sure what our process has to say about having the HTML include *text content* that is not in the text version. I feel strongly that we should keep the full tree diagram in the document (main body or appendix). Regards, Reshad. On Tuesday, October 1, 2024 at 04:20:22 PM EDT, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>> wrote: Hi Lou, et. al. On Oct 1, 2024, at 7:36 AM, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net<mailto:lberger@labn.net>> wrote: Med, Jan, WG, I have to say that I read the discussion concluding with to NOT change the current recommendation, see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/0Q0YiyNi15V-Szzf5awLVh-15_c/ I personally use an ereader (or computer) more than paper and having to go to a static URL -- probably when I'm off line -- does NOT seem like something we should be recommending. Agreed, at least not as a sole option (see "Options" at bottom) Furthermore, I'm not sure what our process has to say about having the HTML include *text content* that is not in the text version. I’m unsure as well. Something to ask RFC Editor about? Presumably RFC Editor would have to archive the linked artifacts as well - right? In any case, RFC’s can/do have hyperlinks and, if not normative, it seems technically possible to link an external artifact, as one of a few options (again, see “Options" at bottom) Again just my perspective. What do others think? do they feel strongly that this change from the current recommendation (in RFC8340) of having long trees in appendixes is a good or bad idea? (Yes, I'm in the strongly against camp.) RFC 8340 says: When long diagrams are included in a document, authors should consider whether to include the long diagram in the main body of the document or in an appendix. Which I think is fine, and I don’t see a reason to change. That said, I find that full/long diagrams sometimes exceed the 69-column limit, thus requiring RFC 8792 folding, which (for me) usually comes out looking like an absolute mess ;) Options: * Guide the reader how to use `rfcstrip` and `rfcfold` to unfold the folded diagram found in the Appendix of the plain-text version of the document. * Guild the reader how to use `rfcstrip` and `pyang` to generate the full/long diagram on their local system. * Include a pointer to a stable URL for the unfolded version of the full/long diagram * Do not include any guidance or the full/long diagrams in the Appendix. This assumes that the document did a good job linking the unexpanded groupings in the tree diagrams. * Some combination of the above? Kent / contributor Thanks, Lou On 10/1/2024 4:24 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com<mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote: Hi Lou, * The comment that triggered the change and companion thread where this was discussed and changes proposed can be seen at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/-b2HX0XUK49qJB19LHu6MC0D9zc/. Please note that for html version can still include the long tree, The tooling may evolve in the future to provide better rendering of too long trees. This tooling may offer (but not limited to), unfold trees, control of expanded views, ease navigation among various levels of a tree, support of hyperlinks, etc. When such a tooling is available, too long trees can be displayed in the HTML version of documents that include such trees. * The candidate change was shared with the WG prior to IETF#119:https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/x9aex0PO-KARyg5FtzjLNYrIpLY/ * The thread was open for almost 1 month and a half: https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url1=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-09&url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-10&difftype=--html Cheers, Med De : Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net><mailto:lberger@labn.net> Envoyé : mardi 1 octobre 2024 00:24 À : netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis@ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis@ietf.org> Cc : Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net><mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net> Objet : Re: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Hi, I have a late comment as contributor on this draft (based on a co-chair discussion). Looking at the diff relative of section 3.4 to the original document, I think the idea of referencing a URL versus an appendix is a bad idea. The new text in question: " If the complete tree diagram for a module becomes long (more than 2 pages, typically), the diagram SHOULD be split into several smaller diagrams (a.k.a subtrees). For the reader's convenience, a subtree should fit within a page. If the complete tree diagram is too long (more than 5 pages, typically) even with groupings unexpanded (Section 2.2 of [RFC8340]), the authors SHOULD NOT include it in the document. A stable pointer to retrieve the full tree MAY be included." I prefer the original in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8340#section-3.3 which (a) does not have conformance language and (b) keeps the information as available as the document itself by including the long diagram in an appendix. I would like to see this section reverted to the original. Authors, What is the motivation for the change to URLs and making this a "SHOULD NOT"? Thanks, Lou ¶<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-17#section-3.4-1> On 9/20/2024 4:03 PM, Kent Watsen wrote: This WGLC has successfully closed. The document has moved to the WG State "WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up”. Thank you everyone, especially Med, for your diligence in resolving issues! The next step is the Shepherd write-up. Would anyone in the WG be willing to volunteer to help out with it? Thanks, Kent and Lou (chairs) On May 6, 2024, at 9:57 AM, Kent Watsen <kent+ietf@watsen.net><mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>wrote: This email begins a two-week WGLC on: Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis/ Please take time to review this draft and post comments by May 20. Favorable comments are especially welcomed. 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This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged information that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified, changed or falsified. Thank you.
- [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Kent Watsen
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Kent Watsen
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Qin Wu
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Mahesh Jethanandani
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Kent Watsen
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Kent Watsen
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Reshad Rahman
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis tom petch
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Mahesh Jethanandani
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Andy Bierman
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Benoit Claise
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis tom petch
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Andy Bierman
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Andy Bierman
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Lou Berger
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis mohamed.boucadair
- [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis Andy Bierman