Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes?
Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> Mon, 04 March 2019 13:16 UTC
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Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2019 14:16:30 +0100
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To: adrian@olddog.co.uk
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From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com>
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Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes?
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"Adrian Farrel" <adrian@olddog.co.uk> wrote: > We can go round and round š > > How do I fold > foo bar baz buzz > so that it can be unfolded? > > Clearly a possibility is > foo bar baz \ > buzz > > But what if the line length would break in the white space? > You could solve it as > foo bar \ > baz buzz > which requires slightly more complex folding. > > Actually, this case arises more often than you might think when the > line length would cause a fold before a single space. > Thus, if the line length is 11 > foo bar baz buzz > ..would fold as... > foo bar baz\ > buzz > ...and unfold as... > foo bar bazbuzz > ...if leading spaces are stripped. > > And if leading spaces are not stripped then we cannot handle manual > padding for reasons of visual formatting. For example... > foo bar baz\ > buzz > > Personally, I am *really* struggling to understand why we cannot use > the two-slash approach only. Maybe b/c if we do, people will start to use it and write things like: "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages/ietf-routing@v\ \1.3.1.json", "description": "This package defines a small sample set of I\ \ETF routing YANG modules that could represent the set of IETF routi\ \ng functionality that a basic IP network device might be expected t\ \o support.", I know, it can easily be re-written into: "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages\ \/ietf-routing@v1.3.1.json", "description": "This package defines a small sample set \ \of IETF routing YANG modules that could \ \represent the set of IETF routing \ \functionality that a basic IP network \ \device might be expected to support.", which is almost as readable as: "location": "file://example.org/yang/packages\ /ietf-routing@v1.3.1.json", "description": "This package defines a small sample set \ of IETF routing YANG modules that could \ represent the set of IETF routing \ functionality that a basic IP network \ device might be expected to support.", /martin > > Cheers, > Adrian > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> > Sent: 04 March 2019 11:49 > To: rwilton@cisco.com > Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; joelja@bogus.com; netmod@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? > > "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com> wrote: > > But this behaviour is still different from the frequently used meaning > > of ā\ā today in programming languages, which as I know it just splits > > lines and preserves whitespace. > > Right, but we're not doing a programming language, we try to fit long > lines in examples into the format required by RFCs, including > indentation. For example, suppose you have: > > Here's an example: > > foo bar baz \ > buzz > > Unfolded, do you think this is: > > foo bar baz buzz > > or > > foo bar baz buzz > > > > YANG requires a separator character between a keyword and its > > argument. What happens if the tool happens to split the line between > > the two of them. > > > > > > > > E.g > > > > container\ > > > > test > > > > > > > > After the artwork folding, this would become > > > > containertest > > > > > > > > This could be mitigated by a smarter folding tool (e.g. split before > > the ārā or after the first space). > > > 1. Don't use a tool to add line breaks - remember the goal was to > have a readable example. > > 2. Don't use this alg. for YANG modules, since YANG has builtin / > native support for splitting long lines. > > > > Or, what if the tool was being used to fold a table that was using > > whitespace to align the columns. This could easily break if > > whitespace is stripped. > > Don't use this alg for tables (or ascii art in general) -- it won't > help readers. > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Martin Bjorklund <mbj@tail-f.com> > > Sent: 04 March 2019 08:40 > > To: Rob Wilton (rwilton) <rwilton@cisco.com> > > Cc: adrian@olddog.co.uk; joelja@bogus.com; netmod@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? > > > > > > > > "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" <rwilton@cisco.com<mailto:rwilton@cisco.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > Hi Adrian, > > > > > > > > > > I mostly agree with your last sentence. > > > > > > > > > > I think that if you always preserve whitespace then a single slash is > > > > > fine. I.e. the single slash just breaks the line, and I think that > > > > > this matches how editors, programming languages, etc normally behave. > > > > > > > > > > What Iām not keen on is using a single slash, and then automatically > > > > > stripping leading whitespace on the line following a slash. > > > > > > > > And this is the solution that I prefer. The reason for this is that I > > view examples as something that is there to illustrate some point to > > the reader, and I think that a prettier formatted example with less > > noise helps the reader. I also think that is most cases, this works > > well; i.e., most cases are _not_ on the form: > > > > > > > > 12345 78990 > > > > ^-------------- I need a line break here > > > > > > > > > > > > For this problem, I prefer a solution that is intuitive and has less > > noise and works for 90% of the cases, than a less intuitive solution > > with more noise that works for 100% of the cases. > > > > > > > > > > > > /martin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we want to have control of layout and be able to strip extra > > > > > whitespace then my argument is that it is better to be explicit, and > > > > > using two slashes is one way of achieving this. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From: netmod <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>> > > > On Behalf Of Adrian Farrel > > > > > Sent: 27 February 2019 09:41 > > > > > To: 'Joel Jaeggli' <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com>> > > > > > Cc: netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org> > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? > > > > > > > > > > Complete agreement, Joel. > > > > > > > > > > What follows may look better in proportional fonts. > > > > > > > > > > With a single slash we can wrap as follows > > > > > > > > > > 1234567 9012345 > > > > > > > > > > Goes toā¦ > > > > > > > > > > 1234567 \ > > > > > 9012345 > > > > > > > > > > ā¦and unwrapping is easy. > > > > > > > > > > However, if I want to manually wrap the line with indentation > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > ..going toā¦ > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox\ > > > > > jumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > ā¦I am going to unfold asā¦ > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Conversely, if I resolve this second case by stripping leading spaces > > > > > I getā¦ > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown foxjumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > So I have to fold asā¦ > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox \ > > > > > jumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > But this causes the first case to unfold as > > > > > > > > > > 1234567 9012345 > > > > > > > > > > ā¦i.e., with missing spaces. > > > > > > > > > > This is what caused the use of the second slash soā¦ > > > > > > > > > > 1234567 \ > > > > > \ 9012345 > > > > > > > > > > ā¦andā¦ > > > > > > > > > > The quick brown fox\ > > > > > \ jumps over the lazy dog > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So, my point is, if and only if we do not care about these āspaces on > > > > > the foldā cases, we can operate with a single slash. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Adrian > > > > > > > > > > From: Joel Jaeggli > > > <joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com<mailto:joelja@bogus.com%3cmailto:joelja@bogus.com>>> > > > > > Sent: 27 February 2019 06:31 > > > > > To: Adrian Farrel > > > <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk%3cmailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>> > > > > > Cc: Kent Watsen > > > <kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net<mailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net%3cmailto:kent+ietf@watsen.net>>>; > > > > > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> > > > > > Subject: Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 26, 2019, at 14:26, Adrian Farrel > > > > > <adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk<mailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk%3cmailto:adrian@olddog.co.uk>>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hey. > > > > > > > > > > Iāve been having this discussion with Kent off-line, but thought it > > > > > should come to the list. > > > > > > > > > > I donāt think it is a good idea to have two approaches. While it would > > > > > be relatively easy to code for both approaches, it seems to add a > > > > > degree of confusion if both have to be handled by the same code > > > > > (consider deciding whether leading space characters are to be retained > > > > > or not, something that can only be decided when the first non-space > > > > > character is found), or by having different code for the two different > > > > > cases. > > > > > > > > > > It doesnāt seem to me that both cases are needed. We can pick one or > > > > > the other. > > > > > > > > > > A single slash has been used to wrap long lines in editors and shells > > > > > for decades at this point. > > > > > > > > > > and yeah whatever it is one method seems better than two. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And *if* we want to allow manual folding so that indents can be made > > > > > to make the document more human-readable then we have to use a leading > > > > > ā\ā on continuation lines to show which spaces should be stripped and > > > > > which retained. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Adrian > > > > > > > > > > From: netmod > > > <netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod-bounces@ietf.org>>> > > > > > On Behalf Of Kent Watsen > > > > > Sent: 25 February 2019 22:22 > > > > > To: > > > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> > > > > > Subject: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had a chat with the tools team recently and, in the course of > > > > > things, it was implied that the double backslash approach we have now > > > > > was both surprising and non-intuitive. > > > > > > > > > > This got me thinking that we may have thrown the proverbial baby out > > > > > with the bathwater. > > > > > That is, currently we have a header that reads: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NOTE: '\\' line wrapping per BCP XX (RFC XXXX) > > > > > > > > > > So why not *also* support a header that reads (note the singe slash): > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > NOTE: '\' line wrapping per BCP XX (RFC XXXX) > > > > > > > > > > Whereby this second form only supports the folded line continuing on > > > > > column 1 (no indents). > > > > > > > > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > Kent // contributor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > netmod mailing list > > > > > netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org<mailto:netmod@ietf.org%3cmailto:netmod@ietf.org>> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/netmod > > > > > >
- [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Joel Jaeggli
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Robert Wilton
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Adrian Farrel
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Martin Bjorklund
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen
- Re: [netmod] artwork folding: dual support modes? Kent Watsen