[netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis

[[e-mail]]

Hi Benoît,

==
BC: What are the key advantages to have some YANG tree diagram rules here?
==

There are already rules, e.g.,:


  *   Trees are intended to “provide a concise representation” of a YANG module (8407).
  *   Tree diagrams SHOULD be included “to help readers understand YANG module structure” (8407)
  *   Existing specs have provisions for tree diagrams to be included “as a whole, by one or more sections, or even by subsets of nodes” (8340)
  *   “When long diagrams are included in a document”, these trees may be included in an appendix or the main body (8340)
  *   There are RFCs out there which includes long trees and other RFCs that do not include them.

The updated guidance is meant to have some consistency among our documents:


  *   Characterize “long” and “too long” trees actually means.
  *   Authors may still include long trees, but only in an appendix.
  *   Alternatively, authors may include a stable pointer to retrieve the long full trees. The narrative text still include subtrees to help readers walk through modules.

The “grep” usage below is still possible with url approach.

Is there any specific change that you propose to: Diff: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt - draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt<https://author-tools.ietf.org/api/iddiff?url_1=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt&url_2=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/long-trees/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt>

Thank you.

Cheers,
Med

De : Benoit Claise <benoit.claise=[e-mail]>
Envoyé : mardi 15 octobre 2024 14:54
À : Andy Bierman <[e-mail]>; BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <[e-mail]>
Cc : [e-mail]; [e-mail]; Jan Lindblad <[e-mail]>; Kent Watsen <[e-mail]>
Objet : Re: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis

Dear all,

I tend to agree with Andy here.
What are the key advantages to have some YANG tree diagram rules here? We never know in advance what people are looking for in that full tree. Sometimes, it's a simple grep.
And if it's too long/not useful, people will simply skip it
We are not even saving trees, as (I guess that) people don't print out RFCs any longer.

Regards, Benoit
On 10/14/2024 1:23 PM, Andy Bierman wrote:
Hi,

IMO we do not need new procedures to save the
reader from a few extra pages of YANG tree diagram text.

This is the only option that makes sense to me:

   *  Include the full tree in an appendix.
Andy

On Sun, Oct 13, 2024 at 10:19 PM <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:
Hi Mahesh,

Yes, this refers to the main body per the structure in rfc7322#section-4. Updated accordingly.

The diff is available using the same link: Diff: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt - draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt<https://author-tools.ietf.org/api/iddiff?url_1=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt&url_2=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/long-trees/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt>

Thanks.

Cheers,
Med

De : Mahesh Jethanandani <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Envoyé : samedi 12 octobre 2024 01:54
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Lou Berger <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Jan Lindblad <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; Kent Watsen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : Re: [netmod] WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis


Hi Med,

Speaking as a contributor ...

On Oct 11, 2024, at 8:47 AM, [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:

Hi Lou, Kent, all,

Taking into account the feedback received so far, I suggest the following change:

OLD:
   YANG tree diagrams provide a concise representation of a YANG module
   and SHOULD be included to help readers understand YANG module
   structure.  If the complete tree diagram for a module becomes long
   (more than 2 pages, typically), the diagram SHOULD be split into
   several smaller diagrams (a.k.a subtrees).  For the reader's
   convenience, a subtree should fit within a page.  If the complete
   tree diagram is too long (more than 5 pages, typically) even with
   groupings unexpanded (Section 2.2 of [RFC8340]), the authors SHOULD
   NOT include it in the document.  A stable pointer to retrieve the
   full tree MAY be included.

NEW:
   YANG tree diagrams provide a concise representation of a YANG module
   and SHOULD be included to help readers understand YANG module
   structure.  If the complete tree diagram for a module becomes long
   (more than 2 pages, typically), the diagram SHOULD be split into
   several smaller diagrams (a.k.a subtrees).  For the reader's
   convenience, a subtree should fit within a page.  If the complete
   tree diagram is too long (more than 5 pages, typically) even with
   groupings unexpanded (Section 2.2 of [RFC8340]), the authors SHOULD
   NOT include it in the main document.  Instead, authors MAY consider
   the following options:

[mj] Not clear what you mean by “main document”. Do you mean the normative section of the document? If so, please edit it to say that.

Thanks


   *  Provide only a stable pointer to retrieve the full tree.  The full
      tree is thus not provided at all.

   *  Include a note about how to generate the full tree.

   *  A combination of the first and second bullets.

   *  Include the full tree in an appendix.

For convenience:

  *   Diff: Diff: draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt - draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt<https://author-tools.ietf.org/api/iddiff?url_1=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt&url_2=https://netmod-wg.github.io/rfc8407bis/long-trees/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis.txt>
  *   PR: https://github.com/netmod-wg/rfc8407bis/pull/70/files

Better?

Cheers,
Med

De : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET
Envoyé : mercredi 2 octobre 2024 11:13
À : 'Lou Berger' <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Jan Lindblad (jlindbla) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Kent Watsen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : RE: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis

Hi Lou,


  *   Keeping long trees in the main document is really not helpful to digest a module. I also know by experience that this raises comments, including from the IESG.
  *   Keeping long trees that exceed 69 line max in the main or as an appendix is really hard to follow.
  *   There are already RFCs out there do not include long trees, but a note about how to generate it. The narrative text uses small snippets to help readers walk through the model.
  *   Some consistency is needed in how we document our modules + help authors with clear guidance (e.g., characterize what is a long tree)

I’m afraid that we can’t simply leave the OLD 8407 as it is.

That’s said, I’m only the pen holder and will implement whatever the WG decides here.

Cheers,
Med

De : Lou Berger <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Envoyé : mardi 1 octobre 2024 13:37
À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; Jan Lindblad (jlindbla) <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Kent Watsen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : Re: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis

Med, Jan, WG,
I have to say that I read the discussion concluding with to NOT change the current recommendation,
see https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/0Q0YiyNi15V-Szzf5awLVh-15_c/
I personally use an ereader (or computer) more than paper and having to go to a static URL -- probably when I'm off line -- does NOT seem like something we should be recommending.  Furthermore, I'm not sure what our process has to say about having the HTML include *text content* that is not in the text version.
Again just my perspective.
What do others think? do they feel strongly that this change from the current recommendation (in RFC8340) of having long trees in appendixes is a good or bad idea? (Yes, I'm in the strongly against camp.)
Thanks,
Lou
On 10/1/2024 4:24 AM, [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:
Hi Lou,


  1.  The comment that triggered the change and companion thread where this was discussed and changes proposed can be seen at:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/-b2HX0XUK49qJB19LHu6MC0D9zc/.

Please note that for html version can still include the long tree,

      The tooling may evolve in the future to provide better rendering
      of too long trees.  This tooling may offer (but not limited to),
      unfold trees, control of expanded views, ease navigation among
      various levels of a tree, support of hyperlinks, etc.  When such a
      tooling is available, too long trees can be displayed in the HTML
      version of documents that include such trees.


  1.  The candidate change was shared with the WG prior to IETF#119:https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/x9aex0PO-KARyg5FtzjLNYrIpLY/
  2.  The thread was open for almost 1 month and a half: https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url1=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-09&url2=draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-10&difftype=--html

Cheers,
Med

De : Lou Berger <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Envoyé : mardi 1 octobre 2024 00:24
À : [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>; [e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>
Cc : Kent Watsen <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]>
Objet : Re: [netmod] Re: WGLC on draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis

Hi,
I have a late comment as contributor on this draft (based on a co-chair discussion).
Looking at the diff relative of section 3.4 to the original document, I think the idea of referencing a URL versus an appendix is a bad idea. The new text in question:
" If the complete tree diagram for a module becomes long (more than 2 pages, typically), the diagram SHOULD be split into several smaller diagrams (a.k.a subtrees). For the reader's convenience, a subtree should fit within a page. If the complete tree diagram is too long (more than 5 pages, typically) even with groupings unexpanded (Section 2.2 of [RFC8340]), the authors SHOULD NOT include it in the document. A stable pointer to retrieve the full tree MAY be included."
I prefer the original in https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc8340#section-3.3 which
(a) does not have conformance language and
(b) keeps the information as available as the document itself by including the long diagram in an appendix.
I would like to see this section reverted to the original.
Authors,
What is the motivation for the change to URLs and making this a "SHOULD NOT"?
Thanks,
Lou
¶<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis-17#section-3.4-1>
On 9/20/2024 4:03 PM, Kent Watsen wrote:
This WGLC has successfully closed.  The document has moved to the WG State "WG Consensus: Waiting for Write-Up”.

Thank you everyone, especially Med, for your diligence in resolving issues!

The next step is the Shepherd write-up.  Would anyone in the WG be willing to volunteer to help out with it?

Thanks,
Kent and Lou (chairs)



On May 6, 2024, at 9:57 AM, Kent Watsen <[e-mail]><mailto:[e-mail]> wrote:

This email begins a two-week WGLC on:

             Guidelines for Authors and Reviewers of Documents Containing YANG Data Models
             https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-netmod-rfc8407bis/

Please take time to review this draft and post comments by May 20.
Favorable comments are especially welcomed.

No IPR has been declared for this document:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/netmod/1LDpkPi_C8cqktc7HXSZgyPDCBE/

Kent & Lou (as co-chairs)





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