Re: [nfsv4] Milestone draft for working group review

Spencer Shepler <> Thu, 24 August 2017 19:07 UTC

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From: Spencer Shepler <>
To: Chuck Lever <>, David Noveck <>
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Thread-Topic: [nfsv4] Milestone draft for working group review
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 19:07:33 +0000
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Subject: Re: [nfsv4] Milestone draft for working group review
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-----Original Message-----
From: nfsv4 [] On Behalf Of Chuck Lever
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 7:55 AM
To: David Noveck <>
Subject: Re: [nfsv4] Milestone draft for working group review

> On Aug 22, 2017, at 8:15 AM, David Noveck <> wrote:
> > Our usual criterion for considering "wacky" ideas is a personal I-D.
> Personal I-D's also discuss non-wacky ideas,  The wackiness of any 
> particular idea is a subjective judgment that different people will 
> make differently and that will change over time, with working group 
> discussion.
> > I'm OK with placing these ideas in a "requires I-D"
> > category.
> I don't anticipate that the list I produce will be organized accoring 
> to categories of that sort.  In any case, I expect that it will contain:
> 	• Ideas for which there is an I-D and those for which there is no I-D (yet).
> 	• Ideas that I consider "wacky",but I'll try to filter out those that the entire working group is liable to find wacky.  In any case, subsequent workig group discussion could result in elimination of most of those. 
> > I'd like to see these items and any clarifications discussed on-list
> I'll make sure to copy the list on any discussion.
> > first
> Before what?,
> > or (preferably) in I-D form. 
> That's certainly preferabe but my ability to get other people to write 
> documents, or even read them, is quite limited.
> > Perhaps that's a
> > high bar,
> It certainly is.
> > but the WG deserves a clear problem statement and explanation of a 
> > proposed solution, so that it's members can evaluate new ideas 
> > fairly.
> The question is at what point they actually need that.  I think it is 
> appropriate for the working group to insist on an I-D before embarking 
> on a working-group document and lately it has been doing that.
> With regard to expectations for inclusion on the potential milestone 
> list, I don't think it makes sense to make the bar that high.  Doing 
> that would filter out too many "wacky" ideas before the working group 
> has had an opportunity to decide that they were not so wacky after all

My opinion is based on recent experience with trying to assess the content of Tom's IETF 99 "Next Steps" slides. Appealing topics, all! But as I discussed these with various other members of the Working Group, it became clear that each of us saw something mildly or even vastly different in each bullet point. An I-D provides a locus for consensus about each idea.

The other important piece of information that an I-D immediately documents is it identifies stakeholders and those who are willing to pursue the publication of the content.

A simple list of criteria for entertaining an idea, wacky or otherwise, might be:

- Consensus around a problem statement

- One or more clearly expressed proposed solutions

- Someone (or ones) identified as the driver

- One or more WG members identified as reviewers or area experts

With a full set of these, we have an idea of what is to be addressed and how; whether it is appropriate work for the WG to consider and help with; and whose specific elbow grease will be applied to get it published.

At that point, the content amounts to a short I-D anyway.

Hence "Requires I-D" would be a category of potentially interesting ideas that are temporarily lacking one or more of the above criteria, though we expect all will eventually be provided in some form.
Essentially this is a list containing I-D placeholders.

You can change the name, if "Requires" has an overly demanding tone.
Would "I-D Requested" be more inviting?

[Spencer] I would expect/hope that we have some threads of discussion on the WG alias to capture the items you mention, Chuck, and use as a method to resolve disparity in initial understanding and as initial content for a personal I-D - process/behavior that would help move things along.  So maybe something like "needs WG discussion and then personal I-D"