[Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing
Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be> Mon, 07 December 2020 22:27 UTC
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Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 23:27:35 +0100
From: Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be>
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Subject: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing
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We have various timescales people might care about: - NTP - TAI - Smeared NTP - UT1 - UTC - UNIX time - TT - GPS - Others There are relations between those time scales, some are fixed, others not. The proposed draft has support for the first 4, and offsets between some of them. Note that it calls the NTP timescale UTC, which it's not. One problem that NTP currently isn't very good at is dealing with the leap second. The current draft proposal doesn't address the problems. The major problems with it are: - The NTP timescale is non-continues in case of a leap second, without an indication of on which scale you are. It also doesn't define which second should get repeated. This means there is a 2 second window where it's unclear what the time is. - There is a need to distribute information about when a leap second will happen, which for can happen over NTP or some other way. Experience shows that a lot of NTP servers get this wrong, resulting in synchronization problems when some servers change and others not. When distributed over NTP, a majority of the servers need to indicate that it will happen. There is no way to indicate that you don't know a leap second will happen or not, making it harder to get it correct. You can fix the first problem by moving to a scale that is continues, like TAI. But I'm not sure if it's better or worse because of the 2nd problem, it will probably be about the same. In TAI it would always be clear what the time means, even if some servers know about the leap seconds and others not. It would avoid marking some servers as false tickers. The current proposed draft supports working in TAI and smeared NTP. I'm not sure about the UT1 scale in the draft but assume it's non-continues. An other way to fix the non-continues problem is to have some indication of on which scale you are. It needs to be able to say in which scale each of the timestamps is. The proposed draft has a TAI-UTC offset if you use the NTP scale that could be used for this, but it would then apply to both timestamps. If that is what we want to do, it needs to be more clear. But for the UT1 scale there is no way to indicate it. NTP could distribute information about difference between timescales. A leap second will change the offsets, so we already do this in a very limited way. TAI-UTC and UT1-UTC are mentioned in the proposed draft, but it depends on which timescale you're using which offset you can get. I'm not sure NTP is the best way to distribute it. But for a lot of devices NTP is the only source of a leap second information. The document also has a smeared NTP option. It doesn't actually say which time you put in the fields, the NTP time, or the smeared NTP time. It then has an offset to the NTP time, without being clear about the sign. The offset is also optional, which means you might not be able to combine servers that smear, that smear differently and that don't smear. I'm currently not sure if we should do something with smearing. We could for instance say that even if the server is smearing, NTP should always contain unsmeared time, and that smearing is an implementation detail. Or we could standardize how it should be smeared. Or like the current draft that you have smear offset. Kurt
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Kurt Roeckx
- [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapseconds and sme… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapseconds and… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapseconds and… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapseconds and… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales, leapseconds and smearing Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapseconds and… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leapsecon… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales, leapseconds and… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales, leapseconds and… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Warner Losh
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Kurt Roeckx
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Timescales, leaps… Ulrich Windl