Re: [Ntp] The NTP WG has placed draft-roughtime-aanchal in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"

Marcus Dansarie <marcus@dansarie.se> Tue, 10 September 2019 20:30 UTC

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From: Marcus Dansarie <marcus@dansarie.se>
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Date: Tue, 10 Sep 2019 22:30:23 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Ntp] The NTP WG has placed draft-roughtime-aanchal in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
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As someone (Daniel or Watson?) said in today's interim meeting: the
purpose of Roughtime is generally not to set the system's clock, but for
other purposes such as certificate verification.

Another important property of Roughtime servers is their ability to
function as general timestamping servers, which might be interesting for
some applications.

Kind regards,
Marcus Dansarie


On 2019-09-10 12:52, kristof.teichel@ptb.de wrote:
> I concur with Hal's quick analysis and (broadly) with its implications.
> 
> While I'm not opposed to adoption of this draft, I don't currently see a
> particularly compelling reason to have it be an RFC either.
> Specifically I don't (yet?) see how that meets any existing need or
> demand in NTP-related environments (which seems to me a good criterion
> for adoption in the NTP WG - but perhaps I'm off track there?).
> 
> To elaborate: Roughtime seems to offer a single feature over other
> secured timesync options, i.e. the ability to tell on a (certified and
> authenticated) server if it goes rogue and sends false time.
> With that one feature in mind, I would really like for the draft to be
> clearer about use cases for Roughtime, specifically in relation to
> secured NTP (NTS, or even NTP-MD5) usage, which I kind of see as the
> default. In particular:
> a) When does it make sense to use Roughtime instead of secured NTP?
> b) When does it make sense to use Roughtime in addition to secured NTP?
> (Remember that a rogue server can tell the truth via Roughtime but
> falsehoods via NTP).
> c) Do we want to somehow integrate Roughtime's features into NTP?-(I
> would find this interesting, but it does not seem to be the intent of
> the draft as written)
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> Kristof
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Von:        "Hal Murray" <hmurray@megapathdsl.net>;
> An:        "Watson Ladd" <watsonbladd@gmail.com>;
> Kopie:        "NTP WG" <ntp@ietf.org>;, "Harlan Stenn" <stenn@nwtime.org>;
> Datum:        10.09.2019 08:35
> Betreff:        Re: [Ntp] The NTP WG has placed draft-roughtime-aanchal
> in state "Call For Adoption By WG Issued"
> Gesendet von:        "ntp" <ntp-bounces@ietf.org>;
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> watsonbladd@gmail.com said:
>> I  would welcome specific suggestions for improvement or things you find
>> unclear.
> 
> I'm missing the big picture.  Why is this interesting?  Is this for some
> legal
> requirements?
> 
> Why invent a new packet format rather than use an extension on NTP packets?
> 
> Why is it interesting to have a convincing proof that server X returned the
> wrong time?  I see 3 cases:
>  1) some new bug has been triggered, for example a GPS week number roll
> over.
> (WNRO)
>  2) the operator is sloppy or incompetent or ??? and has broken something
>  3) the operator is a bad guy.
> 
> In case 1, the operator will fix the problem if we point it out.  A
> quick test
> is enough.  No proof needed.
> 
> In case 2, maybe they learn something, maybe they don't.  A proof won't
> help.
> 
> In case 3, the bad guy will give the truth to roughtime but lie on NTP.
>  So we
> don't have a proof when it might be helpful.  (That assumes we are using
> NTP
> to get accurate time.)
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
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