Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software

Greg.Dowd@microchip.com Wed, 17 August 2022 16:10 UTC

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From: Greg.Dowd@microchip.com
To: stenn@nwtime.org, ntp@ietf.org
Thread-Topic: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software
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Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2022 16:07:59 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software
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Thanks Harlan!  That was it.  I also think this problem significantly pre-dated Sep 2018 since we wrote some special code to handle the MS MAC format on a product that was obsolete by 2018 but all in all the # of requests is low and it hasn't melted the Internet so I assume they will fade away slowly?

Thanks..Greg

Greg Dowd  Microchip - Freq & Time Div.

Assoc. Technical Fellow – Engineering
3870 N First St, San Jose, CA 95134
Direct: 408-964-7643
Greg.Dowd@microchip.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ntp <ntp-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Harlan Stenn
Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2022 6:36 PM
To: Greg.Dowd=40microchip.com@dmarc.ietf.org; ntp@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software

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On 8/16/2022 10:51 AM, Greg.Dowd=40microchip.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
> Wasn't there an "undocumented" authentication mechanism in windows using ntp with symm active or symm passive request?  A different way of parsing the MAC?  I "think" just sending back server worked for unauthenticated but honestly, it's been so long I could be wrong.

The issue is that windows clients (I don't recall if or how authentication plays in to this) by default send a symmetric active request instead of sending a client request.  When we see this, we simply send back a MODE_PASSIVE response, without mobilizing an association.

The fix for this problem looks like it was committed on 12 Sep 2018, but for some reason I think this happened before that.

See Microsoft KB 875242 for the preferred work-around.

The "accommodation" for the broken windows clients was included in 4.2.8p13, unless it happened before that.

H

> I can say that just about every network admin I work with still uses w32time on some box to verify our ntp server functionality.
>
> Thanks..Greg
>
> Greg Dowd  Microchip - Freq & Time Div.
>
> Assoc. Technical Fellow - Engineering
> 3870 N First St, San Jose, CA 95134
> Direct: 408-964-7643
> Greg.Dowd@microchip.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ntp <ntp-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hal Murray
> Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 1:08 AM
> To: Martin Burnicki <martin.burnicki@meinberg.de>
> Cc: Hal Murray <halmurray@sonic.net>; ntp@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Ntp] SNTP, Old crufty software
>
> EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click links or open attachments unless you know 
> the content is safe
>
> martin.burnicki@meinberg.de said:
>> I remember some years ago when Windows XP/Server 2003 was current, 
>> the dumb SNTP client (w32time) shipped with that Windows versions 
>> sent "peer" requests to the NTP server by default,
>
> Thanks.  Pool servers are still seeing that.  That's the tiny bump on the tail that I mentioned.  It's ballpark of 1/2% of the NTPv1 requests.
>
> Do you know what that version of w32time requires for the Mode in a response?
> Will it accept Server?
>
> If nothing else, we need to make a list of the types of v1 requests that are being sent and the responses they need.
>
>> Since SNTP basically uses the same packet format as NTP, in my 
>> opinion the real S(imple) attribute refers to the way the packet 
>> exchange is evaluated at the client side.
>
>> I've seen implementations where the client didn't even try to 
>> compensate the network delay, and just used the server's transmission 
>> time stamp to adjust the client time. Probably because the 
>> programmers though that the resulting accuracy id "good enough".
>
> Right.  If all you need is within a second or two, it may not be worthwhile to do that admittedly tiny extra calculation.  It's just a couple more lines of code to maintain.
>
> I was thinking that we need a section on clocks and networks so people can decide how complicated they need to make their "simple" client and/or how often they need to poll.
>
> ------
>
> Speaking of cruft...  :)
>
> I'm seeing a few v3 and v4 packets with Broadcast Mode.  Anybody know who who/what is doing that?  Some of it looks like real traffic: 64 second polling, LOCL in the RefID, mostly 0s, looks like a time in the transmit slot.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
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--
Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
http://networktimefoundation.org - be a member!

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