Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for status change for draft‑ietf‑ntp‑update‑registries
Martin Burnicki <martin.burnicki@meinberg.de> Tue, 09 August 2022 10:39 UTC
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Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2022 12:39:02 +0200
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To: Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar@redhat.com>
Cc: Hal Murray <halmurray@sonic.net>, "ntp@ietf.org" <ntp@ietf.org>, Harlan Stenn <stenn@nwtime.org>
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From: Martin Burnicki <martin.burnicki@meinberg.de>
Organization: Meinberg Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG, Bad Pyrmont, Germany
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Subject: Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for status change for draft‑ietf‑ntp‑update‑registries
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Miroslav Lichvar wrote: > On Tue, Aug 09, 2022 at 02:22:32AM -0700, Harlan Stenn wrote: >> On 8/9/2022 1:13 AM, Miroslav Lichvar wrote: >>> On Mon, Aug 08, 2022 at 10:33:12PM -0700, Harlan Stenn wrote: >>>>> NIST servers respond to NTPV4 requests with NTPv3. >>>> >>>> which works perfectly with V4 clients, and it works because of the way the >>>> protocol was designed and has worked for ntp V1-V4. >>> >>> It works only with clients that support NTPv3. Not all clients do >>> that. And v1 is not compatible with v2-v4. There is no mode field yet. >> >> I don't understand "clients that support NTPv3". I know that ntpd (which >> has been v4 for nearly 25 years' time) talks with NIST just fine. > > Because ntpd kept the NTPv3 support when it added NTPv4. The NTPv3 > support is broken in some ways, e.g. it accepts Autokey extension > fields which is not possible in NTPv3. Hm, your statement is basically correct. However, given the explanation from the email I wrote just a minute ago, there are 2 possible reasons why a client may receive a v3 response from a server in practice: 1.) The client is v3, in which case it doesn't support autokey at all, and won't send requests with autokey extensions to the server. 2.) The server is v3, in which case it supports symmetric keys, but not autokey. So it is unable to send a response with autokey extensions. Of course you can have a real v4 client use autokey but send a faked v3 version, in which case it might get a v3 response with autokey extensions. I've never heard that this caused any problem. On the contrary, the high level of compatibility between v3 and v4 made the slow changeover from v3 to v4 very user-friendly. > Some client implementations support NTPv4 only and don't accept an > NTPv3 response. Unless there is some faking around, the server runs a v3 implementation in this case. If the client doesn't accept this, the admin has to configure the client to use a different server that supports v4. The same thing will happen if v5 is not compatible with v4, and a v5-only client is configured to use a v4-only server. >>> NTPv5 needs to be designed in such a way that if it is misinterpreted >>> as NTPv3 or NTPv4, it will produce an invalid response that will be >>> ignored by the client. The current proposal has that property. >> >> I submit better behavior would be for a v3 or v4 client to be able to *use* >> a v5 response. > > That is not possible if we want to make incompatible changes in NTPv5. Yes, that's why I believe the acceptance of v5 will grow very much slower than the acceptance of v4. >>>> It sure looks to me like the NTPv5 work will be breaking this. >>> >>> Well, if NTPv5 is expected to have incompatible changes like shorter >>> extension fields, it cannot be compabile with NTPv4. If it was >>> compatible with NTPv4, it wouldn't have to change to NTPv5. >> >> Where is it written that a v4 EF must be compatible with a v5 packet? > > It's not written anywhere. It will save us a lot of work if we can > reuse the existing EFs (e.g. NTS) as they are specified for NTPv4. > >> And if one requires 7822 header lengths for compatibility, great. >> >> The reference implementation supports both, but we do not require 7822 >> minimum lengths because they are demonstrably not needed. > > As I understand it, ntpd doesn't support 7822 yet. It is still > responding to unknown extension fields with a crypto NAK. I still don't see why it should not be possible at the server to first try to decode the new EF (chain), and if that fails, try the old format, as I explained in my previous email. Of course the server implementation has to support the new EFs, too. Otherwise it can only send a crypto NAK when it receives an extension field that it doesn't understand. Martin -- Martin Burnicki Senior Software Engineer MEINBERG Funkuhren GmbH & Co. KG Email: martin.burnicki@meinberg.de Phone: +49 5281 9309-414 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinburnicki/ Lange Wand 9, 31812 Bad Pyrmont, Germany Amtsgericht Hannover 17HRA 100322 Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Günter Meinberg, Werner Meinberg, Andre Hartmann, Heiko Gerstung Websites: https://www.meinberg.de https://www.meinbergglobal.com
- [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change for … Karen O'Donoghue
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Karen O'Donoghue
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Karen O'Donoghue
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Sanjeev Gupta
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Martin Burnicki
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Karen ODonoghue
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Leif Johansson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… James
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… James Browning
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Leif Johansson
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Danny Mayer
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Danny Mayer
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Danny Mayer
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC for st… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Heiko Gerstung
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Danny Mayer
- Re: [Ntp] Quick review of WGLC for status change … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… kristof.teichel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… kristof.teichel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… kristof.teichel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of WGLC fo… Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review of W… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Harlan Stenn
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … James Browning
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Quick review … Ulrich Windl