Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales
Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> Fri, 11 December 2020 16:04 UTC
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Cc: magnus@rubidium.se
To: Ulrich Windl <Ulrich.Windl@rz.uni-regensburg.de>, "ntp@ietf.org" <ntp@ietf.org>
References: <20201209101830.7CB0240605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <20201209113003.GA2352378@localhost> <5FD0D13C020000A10003D6CB@gwsmtp.uni-regensburg.de> <20201209134612.GC2352378@localhost> <5FD1C75D020000A10003D6FF@gwsmtp.uni-regensburg.de> <0bcd7806-acf1-f6a7-e779-5392772fb30d@rubidium.se> <5FD321E4020000A10003D76F@gwsmtp.uni-regensburg.de>
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se>
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Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 17:03:51 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales
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Ulrich, On 2020-12-11 08:38, Ulrich Windl wrote: >>>> Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.se> schrieb am 10.12.2020 um 20:07 in > Nachricht <0bcd7806-acf1-f6a7-e779-5392772fb30d@rubidium.se>: >> Ulrich, >> >> On 2020-12-10 07:59, Ulrich Windl wrote: >>>>>> Miroslav Lichvar <mlichvar@redhat.com> schrieb am 09.12.2020 um 14:46 > in >>> Nachricht <20201209134612.GC2352378@localhost>: >>>> On Wed, Dec 09, 2020 at 02:29:32PM +0100, Ulrich Windl wrote: >>>>> However you could see the leap indication flag also as "leap > confirmation" >>>>> flag (actually there will be a leap event). With only DCF‑77 clocks this >>>> could >>>>> be a problem. As said earlier, it would be best if NTP could reliably >>>> transfer >>>>> the leapsecond table, or at least the relevant part of it to make clients >>>> know >>>>> in advance that and when a leap event is scheduled. >>>> There is the tzdist (RFC7808) protocol designed for that. >>>> >>>> NTP could distribute a leap‑second table (it already did it with >>>> Autokey, right?), but isn't NTP about distributing current time, >>>> rather than reconstructing time in the past or future? >>> Hi! >>> >>> You all seem to have missed my point: In the recent past there was a lot > of >>> discussion and confusion what the LI (Leap Indicator) means: >>> Leap second today, leap second at the end of the month, leap second soon. > So >>> having the definite time of the next leap event would all make this > easier. >>> Actually it could make the LI even obsolete. >> No, not really. I did see that, but there is a subtle point to it. >> >> You have two scenarios: >> >> 1) You know the current TAI-UTC offset, and there is no know upcoming >> offset. >> >> 2) You know the current TAI-UTC offset, and you know there is a upcoming >> new offset introduced at Time T to become offset O. >> >> As you provide the T and O values, you need to know if those fields is >> valid or not, for that you typically use a separate flag to indicate > Actually no: if the T is in the past it's equivalent to "no leap event > scheduled" (and vice versa). > >> that, rather than put restrictions on how to interpret those values to >> mean that. So, I think it is provides a much better function to have >> such a flag. Do read the complete sentence. There is many ways to have values "flag" things. Each such ends up being problematic in the long run. >> >> Separate from that, people have suggested that a flag should indicate a >> particular occurrences time. Unfortunately, that has proven the source >> of nasty bugs, and also, it can put implications of for how long before >> it can be announced, and you end up knowing that you know there is an >> upcoming leap second, but the distribution mechanism does not allow you >> to announce it yet because it would be interpreted for the wrong time. >> Whenever possible, it is therefore advisable to always supply the >> time-stamp at which time the future event will occur, as it then leaves >> no room for misinterpretation. In the similar sense, it is advisable to >> not use interpretation of the fields to know if they provide a future >> event or not, but only indicate the facts about the future event which >> occurrence is flagged with a dedicated bit. >> >> Being able to compress things does not make it wise, in fact it has >> turned out to be very unwise to do so, as it is not future-proof at all. >> >> So, this is why I advocate for a flag to indicate upcoming leap-second, >> a field to indicate the current TAI-UTC difference, upon the flag being >> set the values of future time-stamp and new TAI-UTC offset becomes valid >> fields. > > The only disadvantage I see is that T seeds some extra bytes. Which is a relatively light weight price to pay for a robust mechanism these days. You can check the size of the fields for GPS in IS-GPS-200L. That is carried over a 50 baud data-channel, and while only allowed to transmit every 12,5 min, it have provided a robust mechanism since it's introduction. Cheers, Magnus
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Miroslav Lichvar
- [Ntp] Timescales Hal Murray
- [Ntp] Antwort: Timescales kristof.teichel
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Magnus Danielson
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Timescales Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales FUSTE Emmanuel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales FUSTE Emmanuel
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Miroslav Lichvar
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Warner Losh
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Warner Losh
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antwort: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Hal Murray
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Philip Prindeville
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Timescales Steve Allen
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Warner Losh
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Steve Allen
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Martin Burnicki
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Ulrich Windl
- [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timesca… Ulrich Windl
- Re: [Ntp] Antw: Re: Antw: [EXT] Re: Timescales Magnus Danielson