Re: [nwcrg] nwcrg @ ietf106 minutes

"lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk> Tue, 26 November 2019 08:24 UTC

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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:24:29 +0000 (UTC)
From: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk>
To: Vincent Roca <vincent.roca@inria.fr>, nwcrg@irtf.org, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com>
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Subject: Re: [nwcrg] nwcrg @ ietf106 minutes
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Hi Marie-Jose,

Adding a glossary? That's... puzzling.


If you care to look, you will see that there is alreadya glossary in section 6 of the draft, which is listedclearly in the contents. That glossary hasbeen present in the draft in one form or anothersince Kuhn's original -00.


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-nwcrg-network-coding-satellites/?

My comments below are on that latest version of the draft,which I read (again). Doing so before commenting is a basiccourtesy to the authors, I'd think. (I presume latestis still as submitted before IETF cutoff dates, and not some 
go-do-a-github-repository-pull-for-HEAD thing.)


I am saying that some discussion of DVB's FECFRAMEis appropriate, since it's a major component of DVB-S,and the draft calls on DVB-S(2|2X) a lot.
The rationale for simply ignoring it and the presence ofcoding for link conditions in favour of networkcoding shows the weakness of the network coding argument,to my mind. The name overlap with the IETF FECFRAME seemslike an excuse -- because there is already a glossarywhich can help avoid the 'confusion' that is claimed.

Similarly, a larger acknowledgment, at least,that the 'other' FEC exists would be appropriate forsetting context - even though it is dismissed as outof scope. I'd entertain the argument that network codingand link coding can be complementary, depending onconditions and use cases (rather like the ARQ/FEC tradeoffwe discussed in RFC3366 with discussion of hybrid strategies)-- but I'm having trouble imagining realistic applicationsover satellite where erasure coding provides clear benefits,to the point where all link coding is discarded as unneeded,as this draft seems to be implying. The complementaryargument needs more exploration and fleshing out, imo,and could become a strength of this draft.

Geo satellite conditions generally drive the path, andthe conditions are handled locally in the link/phy layerfor the satellite link. But if network coding is compelling,why should there being a well-conditioned satellite link inthe path even matter?


My take: this draft is a narrowly-scoped house of cardswhich does not hold up that well under inspection, despitethe effort being put into shoring it up - it's betterthan previous versions, but it's a difficult take tosupport as it stands. Well, that's reality for you, andreality bites.


Do give it some thought, give it a spellcheck and a closereading from others than me, then think about another'last' call. Alas, I have other demands on my time...


best

L.


Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk http://about.me/lloydwood 

    On Tuesday, 26 November 2019, 18:37:18 GMT+11, Marie-Jose Montpetit <marie@mjmontpetit.com> wrote:  
 
 Hi Lloyd, a few things:
Are you recommending adding a glossary to the draft and adding a clarification of the DVB S2 vs IETF definition of FECFRAME?
As per on-list discussion: you have been the main commenter on this draft (and thanks for thatt) so maybe you could see if the latest version responds to your comments and we start from there for a next “last-call” cycle?
mjm

 
 Marie-José Montpetit, Ph.D.Research Affiliate, MIT Media Laboratory
mariejose@mjmontpetit.commariejo@mit.edu 

On November 26, 2019 at 1:43:02 AM, lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk (lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk) wrote:
 

> All the comments from Lloyd Wood and Vincent Roca have been answered
> (see details in github I-D repository for Lloyd’s comments).


Well, this is news to me. If something is brought up on the list,
I'd expect it to be answered on the list, as the primary place
where work is discussed. Where is this? Thanks.


> Some satellite vocabulary (satellite "payload" and "FECFRAME"
> in the satellite context) may create confusion at IETF and these
> terms have been removed.
I can see satellitepayload/packet vs frame payload causingconfusion if no context isprovided, and there is little needto refer to the satelliteplatform/payload distinction when everythingis going through thecommunications payload. However, there is aglossary in the draft where theterm and its use can be explicitlycalled out. A glossary is toclear up confusion about vocabulary;that is why it isthere.


FECFRAME is integral to DVB-Sand S2, which the draft relieson heavily. That an IETF groupchose the same name, what, adecade later is merely acoincidence. And there is a glossaryin the draft where the term andits use(s) can be explicitly calledout.

Really, discussing DVB-S withoutnot even saying why you'renot addressing the key FECFRAMEcomponent of DVB-S isinsufficient, or not clarifyingerror correction vs erasurecorrection in some detailparticularly where terminology (FEC)overlaps, is not enough in myview.

noted on the draft:

   Physical and link layers coding protection is
   usually sufficient to guarranty Quasi-Error Free, with a negligeableshould be
Physical- and link-layer codingprotection are usuallysufficient to guaranteeQuasi-Error-Free communications,with a negligible...

Please run a spellcheck beforeasking for anotherlast call.


thanks and regards


Lloyd Wood lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.ukhttp://about.me/lloydwood

On Tuesday, 26 November 2019, 01:08:12 GMT+11, Vincent Roca<vincent.roca@inria.fr> wrote:

Dear all,

We have uploaded the preliminary meeting minutes inthe datatracker:
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-106-nwcrg/
Please tell us if you have comments.

NB: you will also find them in the github repositoryin IMHO a more readable format
    along with all the slidespresented:
    https://github.com/irtf-nwcrg/rg-materials/tree/master/ietf106-2019-11_singapore

We’d like to warmly thank Nicolas, Cédric andOumaima for taking notes.

Cheers,

Marie-Jose and Vincent

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