Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps-00
Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net> Sun, 02 December 2018 07:31 UTC
Return-Path: <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
X-Original-To: oauth@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: oauth@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD9F130E7D for <oauth@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:31:19 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.598
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JHGwwhZonZZI for <oauth@ietfa.amsl.com>; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:31:15 -0800 (PST)
Received: from smtprelay08.ispgateway.de (smtprelay08.ispgateway.de [134.119.228.98]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 294EF130E7E for <oauth@ietf.org>; Sat, 1 Dec 2018 23:31:14 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [91.13.153.47] (helo=[192.168.71.112]) by smtprelay08.ispgateway.de with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <torsten@lodderstedt.net>) id 1gTMDe-0002a5-FZ; Sun, 02 Dec 2018 08:31:10 +0100
Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail-91BF73BE-726F-4AC5-8936-BD54897E63DC"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg="sha-256"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
From: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16B92)
In-Reply-To: <df7c80be-477e-bb4a-cc29-edb233571a2f@ve7jtb.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2018 08:31:09 +0100
Cc: oauth@ietf.org
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Message-Id: <A6E974DC-59C2-43E2-9534-CAD2EE695941@lodderstedt.net>
References: <VI1PR0801MB211299BED6B61582DC33B873FACB0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <CAGBSGjqHKVveZor-oKUWzsQ0Rg5Fk_d2dns_eQFqfvXJynyQaQ@mail.gmail.com> <9347fff8-f3b9-4ee9-84d3-5eebc8dd13f4@getmailbird.com> <309DAA7D-E9B9-4A89-B30E-5BE37DC6CC85@lodderstedt.net> <27627bee-aaab-44fd-9821-b58f7b33bc13@getmailbird.com> <7A852312-B129-4A0F-9914-8DC7E63FD12C@lodderstedt.net> <64a7f649-d2d8-4983-a564-5193adb4314a@getmailbird.com> <5B60008C-C6A7-44CC-B045-9A8C1248ED30@lodderstedt.net> <CA+k3eCTjRWo-OF+Q=KotOJzfBw1uSe7w_bHWDhDKi3WRjQsH9Q@mail.gmail.com> <VI1PR0801MB21121BCD21DE8ABAF055E603FAAC0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <E0F62B7E-9C58-493A-BEFD-91D7441BB5BF@lodderstedt.net> <0BD84A8F-0A71-45CC-BE20-89FBC8FF18D2@lodderstedt.net> <df7c80be-477e-bb4a-cc29-edb233571a2f@ve7jtb.com>
To: John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>
X-Df-Sender: dG9yc3RlbkBsb2RkZXJzdGVkdC5uZXQ=
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/30yFy6O-9_ejwVYXWATRPuhBV_4>
Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps-00
X-BeenThere: oauth@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: OAUTH WG <oauth.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/oauth>, <mailto:oauth-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/oauth/>
List-Post: <mailto:oauth@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:oauth-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth>, <mailto:oauth-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2018 07:31:19 -0000
the UI is rendered in the frontend, UI control flow is in the frontend. just a different cut through the web app’s layering All Angular apps I have seen so far work that way. And it makes a lot of sense to me. The backend can aggregate and optimize access to the underlying services without the need to fully expose them. > Am 02.12.2018 um 00:44 schrieb John Bradley <ve7jtb@ve7jtb.com>: > > How is that different from a regular server client with a web interface if the backed is doing the API calls to the RS? > > > >> On 12/1/2018 12:25 PM, Torsten Lodderstedt wrote: >> I forgot to mention another (architectural) option: split an application into frontend provided by JS in the browser and a backend, which takes care of the business logic and handles tokens and API access. Replay detection at the interface between SPA and backend can utilize standard web techniques (see OWASP). The backend in turn can use mTLS for sender constraining. >> >> Am 01.12.2018 um 15:34 schrieb Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>: >> >>> IMHO the best mechanism at hand currently to cope with token leakage/replay in SPAs is to use refresh tokens (rotating w/ replay detection) and issue short living and privilege restricted access tokens. >>> >>> Sender constrained access tokens in SPAs need adoption of token binding or alternative mechanism. mtls could potentially work in deployments with automated cert rollout but browser UX and interplay with fetch needs some work. We potentially must consider to warm up application level PoP mechanisms in conjunction with web crypto. Another path to be evaluated could be web auth. >>> >>> Am 01.12.2018 um 10:15 schrieb Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>: >>> >>>> I share the concern Brian has, which is also the conclusion I came up with in my other email sent a few minutes ago. >>>> >>>> From: OAuth <oauth-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Brian Campbell >>>> Sent: Friday, November 30, 2018 11:43 PM >>>> To: Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net> >>>> Cc: oauth <oauth@ietf.org> >>>> Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps-00 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Nov 17, 2018 at 4:07 AM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote: >>>> > Am 15.11.2018 um 23:01 schrieb Brock Allen <brockallen@gmail.com>: >>>> > >>>> > So you mean at the resource server ensuring the token was really issued to the client? Isn't that an inherent limitation of all bearer tokens (modulo HTTP token binding, which is still some time off)? >>>> >>>> Sure. That’s why the Security BCP recommends use of TLS-based methods for sender constraining access tokens (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-security-topics-09#section-2..2) Token Binding for OAuth (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-token-binding-08) as well as Mutual TLS for OAuth (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-oauth-mtls-12) are the options available. >>>> >>>> Unfortunately even when using the token endpoint, for SPA / in-browser client applications, the potential mechanisms for sender/key-constraining access tokens don't work very well or maybe don't work at all. So I don't know that the recommendation is very realistic. >>>> >>>> >>>> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the message and any file attachments from your computer. Thank you. >>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> OAuth mailing list >>> OAuth@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> OAuth mailing list >> OAuth@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth > _______________________________________________ > OAuth mailing list > OAuth@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/oauth
- [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Joseph Heenan
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Simon Moffatt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Tomek Stojecki
- [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps… Daniel Fett
- [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-apps… Daniel Fett
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Daniel Fett
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… n-sakimura
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Tomek Stojecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brock Allen
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brian Campbell
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Vladimir Dzhuvinov
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Vladimir Dzhuvinov
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Hans Zandbelt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Jim Manico
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… George Fletcher
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Hans Zandbelt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brian Campbell
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… John Bradley
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Rob Otto
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Phil Hunt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Hans Zandbelt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… David Waite
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… John Bradley
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Torsten Lodderstedt
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Brian Campbell
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Vittorio Bertocci
- Re: [OAUTH-WG] draft-parecki-oauth-browser-based-… Aaron Parecki