[OAUTH-WG] Re: We cannot trust Issuers

Leif Johansson <leifj@mnt.se> Tue, 23 July 2024 17:13 UTC

Return-Path: <leifj@mnt.se>
X-Original-To: oauth@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: oauth@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19239C14F702 for <oauth@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.907
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.907 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_ZEN_BLOCKED_OPENDNS=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnt-se.20230601.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([50.223.129.194]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hamfs9dVe5ak for <oauth@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:58 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-oo1-xc33.google.com (mail-oo1-xc33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::c33]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33A1BC14F6A0 for <oauth@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-oo1-xc33.google.com with SMTP id 006d021491bc7-5d5846f7970so1030027eaf.3 for <oauth@ietf.org>; Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:57 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnt-se.20230601.gappssmtp.com; s=20230601; t=1721754837; x=1722359637; darn=ietf.org; h=mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding:references :in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fTrrZ3ik0taRe+p3U8goBRHpS/gOX9uWv+LnCw9X9wc=; b=vq4V86hqwDWpAlNZK4aIe5Ww4Dh37DgTpNwZ52OUDJVf8ySKWgm1y3dcd/OCjUpjSE SYn6OXLAmMfV9WgwXjQ0o3/XCI3Of71AVpbe8Aydxd9DqCyMr1ujTJESBf1Q3N+S2qFK RcGdowvDigZtZg/TmbMTXbqarfdKCbSPuAlfpq0hVIeK/+7lnibW+BmeAkiEcN6lJ4fS klfM4EQR3a2n15QEOF4xsdPXQCJ2QCMBQpZDHnksGuOv0cp/XVwwbj/x8h5P7EsFeeeI dmgUXiJTsCvLe2J25rEhtEKPC9bz6f7oTjHm+rb0r2LwuDJCp5cMUPNqwi+Jtw4JCBjp ZjAw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1721754837; x=1722359637; h=mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding:references :in-reply-to:date:cc:to:from:subject:message-id:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=fTrrZ3ik0taRe+p3U8goBRHpS/gOX9uWv+LnCw9X9wc=; b=GtxQo4LZxGsZULx67qFzAIZVtqpJt2SwCqPGq6C9LrtecoXLBRIfUgvsrvWlmtVI8S jPzV5ttfyAtA5FUsv1j9YMVtzGpNxHeB4MS45w+fqcTnCYD1ZrCNptQ0AIjdslIGVMvw M0c2QfXY4Yy9W2+nVkVU65m52vy475MEKlUMpRS+qZZaWDcYlFPpU91RZSYxPjNS5BbE MbaXeYenhCQhcwhhLwiSiiYoJJmBWPffgWkwYSbxJ6e/nU8dTM+qbPC7Ezp3q6S+tz2k UntvuUYHm2ATvtF5wRXiC6c7lVi1UjF3CziFGLwRPVtrPGpuPQ5IHvMNRlAWQtep6yjk 0Cjw==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yzcsv0ISquZlW+hZ48VzlnjcgD6IYquIYpxlskiqZL0n4o+s3q8 yhnlAgNsI+u/Yl7PSo8nQ1Xuy1xtDY/ExZwEzm6Cg1a5z99i0DCWwfDgJyKoKr27HOtVGPuceHv QRg==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGtq4PtGDdJrd3lDMkjoqup7vrSvOEkxVwytwdqW/Z3ztQoWHyH51qya2QIFkrYvmzAgwmnTg==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:6358:2a5:b0:1aa:d121:d1cb with SMTP id e5c5f4694b2df-1acc5b3576emr1209900155d.18.1721754836800; Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:1017:533a:b576:699? ([2001:67c:370:128:1017:533a:b576:699]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d2e1a72fcca58-70d1c99ce43sm4425302b3a.205.2024.07.23.10.13.56 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 23 Jul 2024 10:13:56 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <c464d1fc1530c267bf9ecc64ef3e5723c171829d.camel@mnt.se>
From: Leif Johansson <leifj@mnt.se>
To: Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 19:15:30 +0200
In-Reply-To: <CAL02cgRPc8Ef8LjL4pNOCOmApSNaCSZSekmxxcps7yAZ6ZhdqA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACsn0cmy03viT6wboUZeVu_8Yf-m7As0rxcjpda2W_Xw6ohKNg@mail.gmail.com> <CAANoGhLsm1yqJvKuPEH_is-ep60EVNfLfi17T9M17KJFfAFiNQ@mail.gmail.com> <CACsn0ckXZVPznV8cq4sMm1axCzMfd_M8FQ9BnMa5TTvPgZ8emg@mail.gmail.com> <CAL02cgRPc8Ef8LjL4pNOCOmApSNaCSZSekmxxcps7yAZ6ZhdqA@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
User-Agent: Evolution 3.44.4-0ubuntu2
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID-Hash: C7LM3XL62CNO7LUSV6KHEEY5XKX5YYAY
X-Message-ID-Hash: C7LM3XL62CNO7LUSV6KHEEY5XKX5YYAY
X-MailFrom: leifj@mnt.se
X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; header-match-oauth.ietf.org-0; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header
CC: IETF oauth WG <oauth@ietf.org>
X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc4
Precedence: list
Subject: [OAUTH-WG] Re: We cannot trust Issuers
List-Id: OAUTH WG <oauth.ietf.org>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/oauth/4HkpCSnQfAhCMhtV5D1ExO0jm9Q>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/oauth>
List-Help: <mailto:oauth-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Owner: <mailto:oauth-owner@ietf.org>
List-Post: <mailto:oauth@ietf.org>
List-Subscribe: <mailto:oauth-join@ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:oauth-leave@ietf.org>

On Mon, 2024-07-22 at 19:43 -0400, Richard Barnes wrote:
> I would observe that any solution based on garden-variety digital
> signature (not something zero-knowledge like BBS / JWP) will have
> problems with issuer/verifier collusion.  One-time tokens and batch
> issuance don't help.  There is no such thing as SD-JWT with
> issuer/verifier collusion resistance.  At best you could have SD-JWP.
> 
> I don't think this needs to be a blocker on SD-JWT.  There are use
> cases that don't require issuer/verifier collusion resistance.  We
> should be clear on the security considerations and warn people away
> who care about issuer/verifier collusion resistance, and accelerate
> work on SD-JWP if that's an important property to folks.
> 


+1 on this