Re: [OAUTH-WG] Token Mediating and session Information Backend For Frontend (TMI BFF)

Do you eliminate the cookies too?

> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:50, Dominick Baier <dbaier@leastprivilege.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Well. Maybe it is at least worth while then to at least mention that you could also take a slightly different approach and eliminate all tokens in the browser - with the respective trade offs.
> 
> ———
> Dominick Baier
> 
>> On 17. February 2021 at 20:46:42, Warren Parad (wparad@rhosys.ch) wrote:
>> 
>>> While someone will always say “but this doesn’t solve the XSS problem” - this is absolutely correct. But when there are no tokens in the browser - you can simply eliminate that part of the threat model ;)
>> The point was it doesn't eliminate anything, it just changes the request/response data that is part of the attack. This doesn't increase security, as a matter of fact, with regard to the RFC, we shouldn't talk about security at all, since it has zero impact on it.
>> 
>> It is worth talking about that pattern as one possible solution to maintaining sessions, but that's it.
>> 
>> 
>> Warren Parad
>> Founder, CTO
>> Secure your user data with IAM authorization as a service. Implement Authress.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:43 PM Dominick Baier <dbaier@leastprivilege.com> wrote:
>>> Yes - “no OAuth tokens in the browser” ;) They are all kept server-side and the BFF proxies the API calls if necessary. Also the RT management happens server-side and is transparent to the SPA.
>>> 
>>> I see that in lots of industries - finance, health, cloud providers
>>> 
>>> While someone will always say “but this doesn’t solve the XSS problem” - this is absolutely correct. But when there are no tokens in the browser - you can simply eliminate that part of the threat model ;)
>>> 
>>> ———
>>> Dominick Baier
>>> 
>>>> On 17. February 2021 at 18:30:23, Vittorio Bertocci (vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks Dominick,
>>>> 
>>>> It is indeed a very simple spec, but as you can see from the discussion so far, it doesn’t appear to be trivial- and there might be some considerations we consider obvious (eg scope escalation) that might not be super clear otherwise.
>>>> 
>>>> In terms of the guidance, just to make sure I get the scope right- that means that also code+PKCE+rotating RTs in JS would not be acceptable for your customers?
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> From: Dominick Baier <dbaier@leastprivilege.com>
>>>> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 00:27
>>>> To: Brian Campbell <bcampbell@pingidentity.com>, Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net>
>>>> Cc: Vittorio Bertocci <vittorio.bertocci@auth0.com>, "oauth@ietf.org" <oauth@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [OAUTH-WG] Token Mediating and session Information Backend For Frontend (TMI BFF)
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Hey, 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> Tbh - I have a bit of a hard time to see why this requires a spec, if that is all you are aiming at. Wouldn’t that be just an extension to the “OAuth for web apps BCP?”.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> All I can add here is - this approach would not work for any of our customer. Because their real motivation is to implement a more and more common security guideline these days - namely: “no JS-accessible tokens in the browser” - but this document doesn’t cover this.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> cheers 
>>>> 
>>>> ———
>>>> 
>>>> Dominick Baier
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On 16. February 2021 at 22:01:37, Brian Campbell (bcampbell=40pingidentity.com@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 9:48 AM Torsten Lodderstedt <torsten@lodderstedt.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thank you again for the explanation. 
>>>> 
>>>> I think your assumption about the overall flow should be described in the draft.
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> We did attempt to capture the assumptions in the draft but clearly could have done a better job with it :)
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> As I understand it now the core contribution of your proposal is to move refresh token management from frontend to backend. Is that correct? 
>>>> 
>>>>  
>>>> 
>>>>  Taking that a bit further - the idea is that the backend takes on the responsibilities of being a confidential client (client creds, token acquisition, token management/persistence, etc.) to the external AS(s). And TMI BFF describes a way for that backend to deliver access tokens to its own frontend. 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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