"Jim Wing (J W)" <jwwing@vnet.ibm.com> Fri, 19 February 1993 23:01 UTC

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From: "Jim Wing (J W)" <jwwing@vnet.ibm.com>
To: ietf-oda@cs.ucl.ac.uk, info-oda+@andrew.cmu.edu
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The following document is the final draft minutes of PAGODA 12 held
in Dallas, TX USA in October 1992.  These minutes are subject to
approval at the next meeting of PAGODA tentatively scheduled for the
week of March 29 - April 2, 1993 in the UK.  Contact is Steve Price
of EWOS, s.price@sunc.sheffield.ac.uk, 44 298 816047 phone and fax.

===================forwarded document==============================
PAGODA 12 Minutes
Dates: October 19-23, 1992
Location: Westlake, Texas, USA


           Jim Wing, PAGODA 12 Chair, IBM USA, head of OIW delegation
           Ian Valentine, Level-7, EWOS
           Ian Campbell-Grant, ICL, head of EWOS delegation
           Richard Carr, NCC, EWOS
           Makoto Oya, Hitachi, head of AOW delegation
           Heinz Schmied, IBM Germany, EWOS
           Patrick Stephens, DEC, OIW
           Tom Slade, PAGODA 12 Secretary, IBM, OIW
           Fabrice Bourge, France Telecom, CCITT
           Frank Spielman, NIST, OIW
           Rick Pond, IBM Canada, OIW

Opening/meeting administration:

Jim Wing welcomed and introduced the participants.  The minutes of the
previous two meetings were discussed and accepted as is (P12-2, P12-3).
After review of the action lists from the previous meeting, it was decided
that all actions had been satisfactorily closed.

Presentation of positions:

Makoto Oya introduced documents P12-04 through P12-13 as contributions for
discussion on behalf of AOW.

Ian Campbell-Grant introduced documents P12-14 through P12-26 as EWOS

Jim Wing presented P12-27 to P12-35 as OIW contributions.

Fabrice Bourge presented P12-45, CCITT Recommendation T.510, as a
contribution from CCITT.


The following agenda was agreed upon:

           1. FOD Issues

                       1a. general policy for FOD evolution
                       1b. fast path procedures
                       1c. proposed extensions to level 2 DAP (FOD26E)

           2. Image Applications DAPs progression

           3. DAP Taxonomy

           4. Testing (Part 3) issues

                       4a. Abstract Test Suites
                       4b. Test Case Directory

           5. Profiles for use with CGM

           6. DAPs for application specific information types within ODA document

           7. ISR Proforma and Policies

                       7a. use of database tool
                       7b. multiple proforma possibility
                       7c. P10 60 report
                       7d. General framework P10 5
                       7e. examples of proforma; are they merges?

           8. Fonts

Detailed discussion by topic:

1. FOD Issues
1a.  general policy for FOD evolution

Ian Campbell-Grant explained this issue as a problem of how the FODs should
accommodate new functionality as available in the base standard.  For
example, color and security capabilities are in the 1993 published version
of 8613 and will eventually need to be addressed by the profiles.  Audio and
hypertext capabilities are in the pipe for future versions of the base

The group decided to defer consideration of this problem until the next
meeting.  Concrete proposals were invited for consideration at the next

1b.  fast path procedures

The question from OIW concerning fast path processing for rapid adoption of
ISPs was answered negatively.  The current ISP procedure approximates the
fast path procedure for DIS used by ISO.

1c.  proposed extensions to level 2 DAP (FOD26E)

OIW proposed extensions to FOD26 to align with functionality expected by
users of major word processing products.  Patrick Stephens made the case for
a level of functionality that would match current market expectations of
users of word processing products, but not incur the large increment of
expense necessary to implement the level 3 profile.  The RISE project which
is using ODA for the interchange of standards documents, for example, finds
current word processing capabilities adequate, but FOD26 inadequate.  He
presented FOD26E (P12-30) as a proposed minimal set of extensions.

Much discussion ensued on this topic.  EWOS, AOW and CCITT had brought in
positions opposing the proposed set of extensions in FOD26E from OIW.  AOW
opposed FOD26E because the OIW proposal does not cover world-wide
requirements.  Any enhancements would require considerable discussion and
negotiation, and also would be dependent upon the FOD evolution policy yet
to be determined.  It became clear that the workshops could neither agree on
support of enhancements to FOD26 nor a sub-setting of FOD36 to meet the
particular needs addressed by FOD26E in a timely manner.  The attendees
agreed on a two-part position:

a) that needs for different sets of functionality than met by the ISPs
should be pursued as regional profiles;

b) that PAGODA strongly encouraged maintaining subset/superset relationships
with current ISPs in such regional profiles.

P12-56 was accepted with some revisions as describing the PAGODA position.
Patrick Stephens accepted the action item to revise the document according
to the group's agreement.  OIW will pursue the FOD26E functionality as a
regional DAP.  The general policy for ISP enhancement must be carefully

2. Image Applications DAPs progression

A breakout group consisting of Frank Spielman, Rick Pond, Ian Campbell-Grant
and Makoto Oya (part time) met to work on an ISP for image.  The problems
addressed by the breakout group are described in the report of the breakout
group (attachment 1, P12-55).

The group reported that the goal of a complete ISP was possible, with an
optimistic target date of January 1994.

P12-52 was accepted by the plenary.  This document is a cover letter
requesting harmonization by the workshops on the proposed image profile.
The letter will be sent to SC18, Herman Silbiger.  The group discussed
including the CCITT.  Fabrice Bourge agreed to take it to the CCITT with an
invitation to participate in the harmonization process if they desire.

P12-53 will be sent along with the minutes of this meeting.

The plenary, in the course of discussing P12-52 to P12-54, agreed to title
all FOD's using "Open" instead of "Office" document architecture.  All
workshop editors accepted action items to update their respective documents
to reflect this agreement.  All editors will put a note at the end of PAD
recommendations that the change from "Office" to "Open" was agreed by ISO in

Ian Campbell-Grant took an action item to propose the text of the note to be
used by each editor to explain the title change.

P12-54 was accepted with revisions.  Frank Spielman took an action to mail
clean copies to Steve Price.

P12-55 This document will be updated by Frank Spielman to include the
bit-order discussion from the image breakout group.

3. DAP Taxonomy (response to SGFS taxonomy concerns - P12-35)

The hand-written version of P12-51 was accepted by the plenary.  The group
agreed on a need to produce and send a modified text of the taxonomy to SGFS
along with this response.  Ian Campbell- Grant took the action to update the
taxonomy and to send the letter, P12-35, to SGFS with the updated taxonomy.
Mr.  Campbell-Grant will attempt to attend the SGFS meeting to present the
PAGODA position.

4. Testing (Part 3) issues

4a.  Abstract Test Suites

P12-48 was accepted with revisions as the PAGODA position to the issues of
management and maintenance of Abstract Test Case suites for the ISPs.
Richard Carr took the action item to revise this document and send to PAGODA
and to the distribution list on the document.

4b.  Test Case Directory

Because the Abstract Test Suites are potentially very large, what portion
will reside in the ISP?  The proposed solution is to use the Test Case
Directory with a pointer to a separate document (which might not be on paper
depending upon its size) that contains the actual test case details.

5. Profiles for use with CGM (P12-17)

EWOS is developing a set of CGM profiles that are described in P12-17.  The
level 1 CGM profile corresponds the graphics capability now included in
FOD36.  There was interest in moving towards a situation where ODA profiles
simply pointed to the appropriate CGM profile rather than having to define
their own.  For this reason, the absence of a profile level corresponding to
the needs of FOD26 was noted.  The response to P12-17 indicates interest in
eventual use of the CGM profiles and requests consideration of a profile
suitable for inclusion by a level two ODA DAP.

P12-50 was accepted as representing the PAGODA position on the CGM profile
work and will be circulated to the workshops and to CCITT.  The PAGODA
response, P12-50, was accepted.

6. DAPS for application specific information types within ODA

Ian Cambell-Grant gave the background to this issue (P12-15) as a need to
allow industry specific information such as medical imaging to be carried in
otherwise ISP-conformant datastreams.  EWOS is undertaking a NWI to develop
guidelines for recognizing and incorporating such specialized encodings in a
well-defined way.

After brief discussion, a PAGODA response to P12-15 was agreed upon,
expressing interest and a desire to be informed on the work.  This response
is found in P12-49.

7. ISR Proforma and Policies

The major decision was to assign Ian Valentine to edit common ISR text and
table structure and to resolve the OIW and EWOS approaches.  Mr.  Valentine
led a break-out group to set up detailed editing instructions and principles
for consolidating sources of text.  The results of this breakout group are
summarized in P12-58.

A tentative work schedule was agreed upon in plenary after presentation of
the breakout group results.

7a.  use of database tool

It was agreed that there was a need for paper versions of both proforma and
abstract test cases.  It was further agreed that the database tool under
development by EC for ISR statements and abstract test case information had
advantages and was not inconsistent with the requirement for paper versions,
since these could be generated by the database application.

7b.  multiple proforma possibility

The OIW position endorsing the possibility of multiple proformas for the
ISPs was tabled in favor of an agreement to strive for common text for

7c.  P10 60 report

This document was reaffirmed as the technical basis for the ISR details.

7d.  General framework P10 5

This document was reaffirmed as the policy statement for general framework
of the ISR proforma.

7e.  examples of proforma; can they merge?

The group finally decided that the workshops would merge the proforma
proposals by selecting a single editor to establish the detailed proforma
based upon the discussion and resultant tentative agreements made in the
breakout group.

8. Fonts

The font issues were resolved by the ISR breakout group.

General agreements:

The plenary agreed that all revisions to documents accepted by attendees as
action items would be completed by 12/01/92.  

PAGODA #13 plans:

The next meeting will be held the week of May 10, 1993 to dovetail with
CCITT's meeting which ends May 7 (and to avoid other conflicts).  EWOS will
host the meeting.  Heinz Schmied volunteer to try to arrange for IBM Germany
to host the meeting in Stuttgart.

Submitted by T. Slade, PAGODA 12 Secretary
  •   Jim Wing (J W)