Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-10.txt

Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com> Wed, 18 April 2018 08:26 UTC

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From: Tianran Zhou <zhoutianran@huawei.com>
To: Alan DeKok <aland@deployingradius.com>, "Douglas Gash (dcmgash)" <dcmgash@cisco.com>
CC: "opsawg@ietf.org" <opsawg@ietf.org>, Andrej Ota <aota@google.com>, Thorsten Dahm <thorstendlux@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-10.txt
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Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:26:38 +0000
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Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-10.txt
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Hi the Authors,

I remember you posted a list of Alan's comments in the mailing list, and mentioned what have been addressed and how, what will be addressed later. 
I think it's a good start. Why not continue doing this for your new revision.
It would be very helpful.

Tianran

> -----Original Message-----
> From: OPSAWG [mailto:opsawg-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Alan DeKok
> Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 11:07 PM
> To: Douglas Gash (dcmgash) <dcmgash@cisco.com>
> Cc: opsawg@ietf.org; Andrej Ota <aota@google.com>; Thorsten Dahm
> <thorstendlux@google.com>
> Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] New Version Notification for
> draft-ietf-opsawg-tacacs-10.txt
> 
> On Apr 17, 2018, at 10:15 AM, Douglas Gash (dcmgash) <dcmgash@cisco.com>
> wrote:
> > Initially (up to around version 5) we included just a very simple security
> section admitting that T+ was insecure and that the second document would
> address the issue. This was deemed to be insufficient, and instead the WG
> collectively determined that more detail should be added to enumerate some
> of the issues, you kindly catalogued some of these, providing a proposed text
> which we took to be a genuine suggestion for text for the document.
> 
>   Which it was.
> 
>   The point I've been trying to make for over a year is apparently still
> unclear.
> 
>   There was no excuse for plagiarizing the text in the first place.  Using
> it verbatim was fine, so long as attribution was given.
> 
>   There was no excuse for ignoring every single email I made to the list asking
> about this issue.
> 
>   There was no excuse for *continuing* to plagiarize the text for over a year,
> across four separate revisions of the document.
> 
> > Subsequently we interpreted your proposal more accurately (as just a
> suggestion of the points to cover), and so we made sure that these were covered,
> but without verbatim reuse of the text.  We hope that we have covered the
> thrust of your issues (and others), but without the plagiarism.
> 
>   I have no idea.  Because at this point, I'm pretty much done reviewing the
> document.
> 
> > 2) Reactivity of the Authors.
> >
> > As far as I know, we have responded to most posts regarding the content
> of the document, with point-by-point replies,
> 
>   No.
> 
>   See the list archives, especially May 2017.  There are multiple people
> suggesting that you have *not* done this, and that you *should* do this.
> 
>   See line-by-line reviews done by me, which were generally ignored.  Despite
> that, I did *multiple* such reviews, until such time as it became clear that
> such reviews were entirely unproductive.
> 
> > but there has been, for various logistic reasons, long delays in submitting
> the resulting new documents. Hopefully this has been addresses in last
> versions and we will continue with more rapid uploads until process completes
> one way or other.
> 
>   The issue isn't rapid uploads.  The issue is engagement.  It's not
> productive to ignore the messages on the mailing list for 6 months, and then
> to issue a new release saying "we fixed stuff".
> 
> > We have not generally responded to posts regarding procedural matters, and
> would leave such discussions to more knowledgeable stewards of the lists where
> possible,
> 
>   You haven't responded to posts where I ask about the plagiarism.  A simple
> reply of "oops, sorry, I'll fix it ASAP" has taken over a year to write.
> 
> > 3) Change Tracking
> >
> > The uploads have generally had extensive changes relating to comments (which
> should generally have been summarized by previous email responses to
> comments).
> 
>   Which I admit did happen sometimes, but not nearly as often as it should
> have.  Again, see mailing list archives from May 2017.  I'm not the only
> person who holds this opinion.  I'm just the main one pushing the point.
> 
> > Because of this, unless the updates have been for specific purposes (such
> as the recent update of the security section) then I would leave the changes
> to the diff tool which works pretty effectively.
> 
>   The diff tool lets us know what changed in the document.  It doesn't let
> us know if those changes addressed issues raise on the mailing list.
> 
>   To summarize:
> 
> * we have no idea if this revision of the document addresses multiple WG
> reviews
> 
> * we have no idea if the document even describes TACACS+ as currently
> implemented
> 
>   As such, it should not be put into working group last call, or much less
> published until such time as those issues are addressed.
> 
>   Alan DeKok.
> 
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