Re: [OPSAWG] Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11: (with DISCUSS)

[[e-mail]]

Hi Michael, 

Please see inline. 

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Scharf, Michael [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Envoyé : lundi 20 septembre 2021 12:05
> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed INNOV/NET <[e-mail]>; Martin
> Duke <[e-mail]>; The IESG <[e-mail]>
> Cc : [e-mail]; [e-mail]; opsawg-
> [e-mail]
> Objet : RE: Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11:
> (with DISCUSS)
> 
> Hi Med,
> 
> What happens if PEs and CEs are both under operator control? In that
> case, the customer-facing L3SM model may not need any TCP-AO
> configuration.
> 
> However, in that case, TCP-AO may need to be configured on the PEs and
> the "send-id" and "receive-id" values must be consistent with the CEs,
> no?

[[Med]] Agree.

 If the PE configuration is done by L3NM, the "send-id" and "receive-
> id" must be part of L3NM model, no?

[[Med]] Not necessarily. See below.

 If not, how would the TCP-AO
> provisioning on CEs and PEs work?

[[Med]] The assumption we had for this version of the module is that send-id and recv-id are pre-configured while only the key reference is manipulated in the L3NM. Some of the implementations separate the TCP-AO configuration from the invocation in context of a particular protocol, e.g.,  

* https://www.juniper.net/documentation/en_US/junos/topics/reference/general/release-notes/20.3/infocus-topicmaps/tcp-authentication-option-map-infocus.html 
* https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/iosxr/ncs5500/bgp/72x/b-bgp-cg-ncs5500-72x/implementing-master-key-tuple-configuration.html#id_77361 

We can add a note about it you think this helps. Thank you. 

> 
> In a nutshell, I don't understand the argument "send-id and receive-id
> are not needed in L3NM because they are not included in L3SM". Also,
> that generic argument would apply to _a lot_ of network level
> configuration that is not part of L3SM.
> 
> BTW, I agree that augmentation will be important for many parameters,
> but IMHO you have to ensure that the L3NM model includes all base
> parameters that are required for connectivity. At least for TCP-AO, I
> don't understand your specific choice in L3NM so far.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Michael
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [e-mail]
> > <[e-mail]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 11:42 AM
> > To: Scharf, Michael <[e-mail]>; Martin Duke
> > <[e-mail]>; The IESG <[e-mail]>
> > Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]; opsawg-
> > [e-mail]
> > Subject: RE: Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11:
> > (with
> > DISCUSS)
> >
> > Hi Michael,
> >
> > The L3NM focuses on the network side (that is, PEs). The module is
> > typically triggered by an L3SM (where the values may be agreed with a
> customer).
> > FYI, the L3SM (RFC8299) does not support the capability to customize
> > TCP- AO.
> >
> > When the L3SM (RFC8299) is augmented in the future to support send-id
> > and recv-id, then the L3NM can be easily augmented to pass them to
> PEs.
> >
> > What is really important is that we have a provision for such augment
> > to happen.
> >
> > Thank you.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >
> > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > De : Scharf, Michael [mailto:[e-mail]]
> > > Envoyé : lundi 20 septembre 2021 11:10 À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed
> > > INNOV/NET
> > <[e-mail]>; Martin
> > > Duke <[e-mail]>; The IESG <[e-mail]> Cc :
> > > [e-mail]; [e-mail]; opsawg-
> > > [e-mail] Objet : RE: Martin Duke's Discuss on
> > > draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11:
> > > (with DISCUSS)
> > >
> > > Chiming in as author of draft-ietf-tcpm-yang-tcp ...
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: OPSAWG <[e-mail]> On Behalf Of
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > Sent: Monday, September 20, 2021 9:03 AM
> > > > To: Martin Duke <[e-mail]>; The IESG
> > > > <[e-mail]>
> > > > Cc: [e-mail]; [e-mail]; opsawg-
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > Subject: Re: [OPSAWG] Martin Duke's Discuss on
> > > > draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-
> > > > l3nm-11: (with DISCUSS)
> > > >
> > > > Hi Martin,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for the review.
> > > >
> > > > I'm very familiar with draft-ietf-tcpm-yang-tcp (as you can see in
> > > > the ACK section of that document).
> > > >
> > > > The structure in draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm follows the one in
> > > > draft-ietf-
> > > > idr-bgp-model:
> > > >
> > > > draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm
> > > >
> > > >   |     |  |     +--rw (option)?
> > > >   |     |  |        +--:(tcp-ao)
> > > >   |     |  |        |  +--rw enable-tcp-ao?      boolean
> > > >   |     |  |        |  +--rw ao-keychain?        key-chain:key-
> chain-
> > > ref
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model
> > > >
> > > >          |  |  |  +--rw (option)?
> > > >          |  |  |     +--:(ao)
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw enable-ao?             boolean
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw send-id?               uint8
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw recv-id?               uint8
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw include-tcp-options?   boolean
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw accept-ao-mismatch?    boolean
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw ao-keychain?
> > > >          |  |  |     |          key-chain:key-chain-ref
> > > >
> > > > We are not echoing the full structure because the L3NM is a
> > > > network model, not a device model. A network model does not aim to
> > > > control every parameter that can be manipulated at the device
> > > > level. Other than enabling/disabling TCP-AP and providing the
> > > > ao-keychain, we didn't identify a need to control and customize at
> > > > the network service level the data nodes in
> > > > draft-ietf-tcpm-yang-tcp:
> > > >
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw send-id?               uint8
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw recv-id?               uint8
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw include-tcp-options?   boolean
> > > >          |  |  |     |  +--rw accept-ao-mismatch?    boolean
> > > >
> > > > These optional nodes can be part of a local profile that can be
> > > > directly manipulated at the device module (draft-ietf-idr-bgp-
> model).
> > >
> > > It is always an interesting (and pretty fundamental) question what
> > > device parameters can indeed be abstracted in a network model. My
> > > personal (well, somewhat dated) experience is that different
> > > operators have very different preferences what parameters to include
> > > in a network model. Careful reasoning may be required for any
> > > omission of a device parameter.
> > >
> > > In this specific case, I don't fully understand how VPN provisioning
> > > via the network level model would pick the values for "send-id" and
> > > "recv- id"? Those parameters need to be configured consistently on
> > > both endpoints of the TCP-AO connection, right? What happens if the
> > > network model draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm only configures one of the
> > > two TCP-AO endpoints?
> > >
> > > So, why can "send-id" and "recv-id" be removed?
> > >
> > > > We can make these changes, though:
> > > >
> > > > s/tcp-ao/ao
> > > > s/enable-tcp-ao/enable-ao
> > >
> > > It certainly makes sense to use at least consistent naming in
> > > different IETF models, but unless there is a good reason to remove
> > > "send-id" and "recv-id", you could just directly import the grouping
> > > to ensure consistency...
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Med
> > > >
> > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > De : Martin Duke via Datatracker [mailto:[e-mail]]
> Envoyé :
> > > > > dimanche 19 septembre 2021 19:55 À : The IESG <[e-mail]>
> Cc :
> > > > > [e-mail]; [e-mail];
> > > > > [e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]
> Objet :
> > > > > Martin Duke's Discuss on draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11: (with
> > > > > DISCUSS)
> > > > >
> > > > > Martin Duke has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > > draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm-11: Discuss
> > > > >
> > > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply
> > > > > to all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel
> > > > > free to cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-
> > > > > criteria.html
> > > > > for more information about DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found
> here:
> > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-opsawg-l3sm-l3nm/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > ----
> > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > > (7.6.3) Is there a reason the TCP-AO model in this draft is
> > > > > different from the one in draft-ietf-idr-bgp-model-11? That
> > > > > draft is using a model developed in the TCPM WG
> > > > > (draft-ietf-tcpm-yang-tcp) specifically for that purpose.
> > > > >
> > > > > If there is no compelling requirement for something different,
> > > > > or the TCPM modelling work can be stretched to cover this use
> > > > > case as well, it would be far better than rolling a totally
> > > > > separate TCP
> > > YANG model here.
> > > > >
> >

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