Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00

["Acee Lindem (acee)" <[e-mail]>]

Speaking strictly with my WG Chair hat off:

Chris, 

I hope we are not going to have to call in the lawyers ;^) It is clear
that RFC 3630 was published by the OSPF WG to satisfy traffic engineering
requirements (simply read the abstract, introduction, and the note the
name of the opaque LSA type). Despite this loophole in the applicability,
there is no IETF specification documenting the usage of these link
attributes beyond traffic engineering and hence no backward compatibility
issue. The argument of whether non-TE applications require the gratuitous
origination of the TE link LSAs or can use the OSPF Prefix/Link attributes
is purely technical.

Thanks,
Acee 

On 10/21/15, 3:44 PM, "Chris Bowers" <[e-mail]> wrote:

>Peter,
>
>RFC3630 does not appear to restrict the use of the attributes it defines.
>  The term "TE extensions" may seem to imply some restriction, but the
>Applicability section of RFC3630 explicitly addresses this potential
>interpretation by saying that a more accurate designation is "extended
>link attributes".
>
>1.1.  Applicability
>
>   Many of the extensions specified in this document are in response to
>   the requirements stated in [5], and thus are referred to as "traffic
>   engineering extensions", and are also commonly associated with MPLS
>   Traffic Engineering.  A more accurate (albeit bland) designation is
>   "extended link attributes", as the proposal is to simply add more
>   attributes to links in OSPF advertisements.
>
>-------
>Also, the response below uses the term "TE-enabled" which along with
>"TE-application" does not appear to have a precise definition in
>draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00.   Based on RFC 3630, it seems
>reasonable to say that a link is "TE-enabled" if the link is advertised
>in the TE Opaque LSA.  I don't think this is the meaning you intend, so
>to avoid confusion, I will use the term "RFC-3630-TE-enabled" to mean
>that the link is advertised in the TE Opaque LSA defined in RFC 3630.
>
>So can you clarify what "TE-enabled" or a "TE-application" means in your
>document?  I assume that it should mean that MPLS is enabled, but it is
>actually not clear to me if just having LDP-enabled on a link would
>qualify as being "TE-enabled" or not.
>
>Thanks,
>Chris
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Peter Psenak [mailto:[e-mail]]
>Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 12:40 PM
>To: Chris Bowers <[e-mail]>; Acee Lindem (acee)
><[e-mail]>; Shraddha Hegde <[e-mail]>; OSPF WG List
><[e-mail]>
>Subject: Re: [OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
>
>Hi Chris,
>
>On 10/21/15 19:20 , Chris Bowers wrote:
>> In my opinion the backwards compatibility problems introduced by this
>> proposal outweigh potential gains.
>
>there is no backwards compatibility problem with the draft.
>
>>
>> As a concrete example, there is at least one existing implementation
>> of remote LFA where policy is used to select a backup tunnel that does
>> not share an SRLG with the failed link.  This SRLG information is
>> carried in the TE Opaque LSA.
>
>that is fine, you are free to do that if the link is TE enabled, there is
>no problem. If the link is not TE enabled and you use TE Opaque LSA to
>flood the SRLG data for such link, you are going against the current
>specification. There is no way to do that today, because any router that
>would receive such TE Opaque LSA must assume such link is TE enabled.
>
>>
>> As it currently reads, I think the proposal in
>>   draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse has the potential to break
>> existing standards-compliant implementations.
>
>I don't believe so.
>
>>
>> I might be OK with having the proposal only apply to sub-TLVs  that
>> get defined in the future.  However, I think that taking TLVs that were
>>   standardized over ten years ago, and selectively moving them or
>> copying them to a different LSA based on a set of rules that is
>> subject to interpretation is going to create confusion and
>> interoperability headaches.
>
>What we propose is the way to advertise link attributes without making
>the link part of TE topology. We simply do not have a way to do that
>today. I do not see any problem in doing so, because we do not change
>anything on the TE Opaque LSA side, we are defining something new.
>
>thanks,
>Peter
>
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> *From:*OSPF [mailto:[e-mail]] *On Behalf Of *Acee Lindem
>> (acee)
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, October 21, 2015 6:48 AM
>> *To:* Shraddha Hegde <[e-mail]>; OSPF WG List
>> <[e-mail]>
>> *Subject:* Re: [OSPF] Regarding
>> draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
>>
>> Hi Shraddha,
>>
>> *From: *OSPF <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>> on
>> behalf of Shraddha Hegde <[e-mail]
>> <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 1:20 AM
>> *To: *OSPF WG List <[e-mail] <mailto:[e-mail]>>
>> *Subject: *[OSPF] Regarding draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00
>>
>>     Hi All,
>>
>>     draft-ppsenak-ospf-te-link-attr-reuse-00 proposes moving and/or
>>     copying TLVs from the TE Opaque LSA to the Extended Link Opaque LSA.
>>     The draft lists the problems that the draft is trying to solve.  I
>>     have reproduced that list of problems below, with each problem
>>     followed by what I believe to be a better and simpler solution.
>>
>>         1.  Whenever the link is advertised in a TE Opaque LSA, the
>> link
>>
>>             becomes a part of the TE topology, which may not match IP
>> routed
>>
>>             topology.  By making the link part of the TE topology,
>> remote
>>
>>             nodes may mistakenly believe that the link is available
>> for MPLS
>>
>>             TE or GMPLS, when, in fact, MPLS is not enabled on the link.
>>
>>     To address this issue, we simply need to define a new sub-TLV in the
>>     TE Link LSAto say whether MPLS/GMPLS/RSVP is enabled on the link
>>     instead of moving the TLVs around into different LSAs.
>>
>>         2.  The TE Opaque LSA carries link attributes that are not
>> used or
>>
>>             required by MPLS TE or GMPLS.  There is no mechanism in TE
>>     Opaque
>>
>>             LSA to indicate which of the link attributes should be
>> passed to
>>
>>             MPLS TE application and which should be used by OSPFv2 and
>> other
>>
>>             applications.
>>
>>     OSPF database is a container and OSPF can use any of the LSAS for
>>     its own use including the TE LSAs.As far as the TE database goes, it
>>     contains data from TE LSAs as well as non-TE LSAs (Network LSA)
>>     today so thereasoning described here doesn't make sense.
>>
>>         3.  Link attributes used for non-TE purposes is partitioned
>> across
>>
>>             multiple LSAs - the TE Opaque LSA and the Extended Link
>> Opaque
>>
>>             LSA.  This partitioning will require implementations to
>> lookup
>>
>>             multiple LSAs to extract link attributes for a single
>> link,
>>
>>             bringing needless complexity to the OSPFv2 implementations.
>>
>>     There will be nodes in the network which will run older software
>>     which send these attributes via TE LSAs so the problem of looking
>>     into the TE LSAs for TE relatedinformation doesn't get solved with
>>     this draft.  Rather it makes it more complicated. With this draft,
>>     the multiple LSA lookup will only increase.An implementation will
>>     first have to find if Extended link LSA contains the required info,
>>     if not it will need to lookup the info in TE.LSA.
>>
>> The applications using the TE parameters for non-TE use-cases will use
>> the OSPF Prefix/Link attributes for these use cases. Hence, there is
>> no requirement to lookup the LSAs in multiple places. Backward
>> compatibility will be covered in the specifications of these
>>applications.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Acee
>>
>>     Looking up multiple LSAs for information is an implementation issue
>>     and I am sure there will be implementations that will handle this
>>     gracefully so that it doesn't cause
>>
>>     delays in critical paths. It doesn't seem reasonable to come up with
>>     protocol extensions to solve implementation issues.
>>
>>     Rgds
>>
>>     Shraddha
>>
>>
>>
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