Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter
<toby.moncaster@bt.com> Thu, 23 October 2008 09:59 UTC
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Thread-Topic: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter
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To: shalunov@shlang.com, p2pi@ietf.org, tana@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter
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This is looking pretty good to me. Couple of minor changes inline... Toby ____________________________________________________________________ Toby Moncaster, <toby.moncaster@bt.com> Networks Research Centre, BT B54/70 Adastral Park, Ipswich, IP53RE, UK. +44 1473 648734 > -----Original Message----- > From: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2pi-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of > Stanislav Shalunov > Sent: 22 October 2008 17:46 > To: p2pi@ietf.org; tana@ietf.org; tsv-area@ietf.org Area > Subject: Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter > > A refreshed working copy of the draft charter. I've attempted to > capture and reconcile the edits and clarify point (2). > > We'll need to change the name, but it's not yet reflected because a > new one hasn't been selected. > > -- Stas > > > > > Techniques for Advanced Networking Applications (TANA) WG > > Chair(s): > TBD > > Transport Area Director(s): > * Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> > * Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com> > > Transport Area Advisor: > * Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com> > > Mailing Lists: > > General Discussion: tana@ietf.org > To Subscribe: tana-request@ietf.org > In Body: (un)subscribe > Archive: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tana/ > > Description of Working Group: > > The TANA WG is chartered to standardize a congestion control mechanism > that should saturate the bottleneck, maintain low delay, and yield to > standard TCP. > > Applications that transmit large amounts of data for a long time with > congestion-limited TCP, but without AQM, fill the buffer at the head > of the bottleneck link. With FIFO queue, this increases the delay > experienced by other applications. With buffer of one RTT, the delay > doubles. In some cases, the extra delay may be much larger. This is a > particularly acute and common case is when P2P applications upload > over thin home uplinks: delays in these cases can sometimes be of the > order of seconds. > " With FIFO queue, this increases the delay experienced by other applications. With buffer of one RTT, the delay doubles." --> " With FIFO queues, this increases the delay experienced by other applications. With buffers of the order of one RTT, the delay doubles." > The IETF's standard end-to-end transport protocols have not been > designed to minimize the extra delay introduced by them into the > network. TCP, as a side effect of filling the buffer until it > experiences drop-tail loss, effectively maximizes the delay. While > this works well for applications that are not delay-sensitive, it > harms interactive applications that share the same bottleneck. VoIP > and games are particularly affected, but even web browsing may become > problematic. > > TANA is a transport-area WG that will focus on broadly applicable > techniques that allow large amounts of data to be consistently > transmitted without substantially affecting the delays experienced by > other users and applications. > > The WG will work on the following: > > (1) An experimental congestion control algorithm for less-than-best- > effort "background" transmissions, i.e., an algorithm that attempts to > scavenge otherwise idle bandwidth for its transmissions in a way that > minimizes interference with regular best-effort traffic. > > Desired features of such an algorithm are: > * saturate the bottleneck, > * eliminate long standing queues and thus keep delay low when no other > traffic is present, > * quickly yield to traffic sharing the same bottleneck queue that uses > standard TCP congestion control, > * add little to the queueing delays induced by TCP traffic, > * operate well in networks with FIFO queueing with drop-tail > discipline, > * where available, use explicit congestion notification (ECN), active > queue management (AQM), and/or end-to-end differentiated services > (DiffServ). > > Application of this algorithm to existing transport protocols (TCP, > SCTP, DCCP) is expected to occur in the working groups that maintain > those protocols. > > (2) A document that clarifies the current practices of application > design and reasons behind them and discusses the tradeoffs surrounding > the use of many concurrent TCP connections to one destination and/or > to different destinations. > > Applications routinely open multiple TCP connections. For example, > P2P applications maintain connections to a number of different peers > while web browsers perform concurrent downloads from the same web > server. Application designers pursue different goals when doing so: > P2P apps need to maintain a well-connected mesh in the swarm while web > browsers mainly use multiple connections to parallelize requests that > involve application latency on the web server side. The IETF > transport area community is concerned about this practice, because > standard Internet congestion control results in different transport > connections sharing bottleneck capacity. When an application uses > several non-rate-limited transport connections to transfer through a > bottleneck, it may obtain a larger fraction of the bottleneck than if > it had used fewer connections. Although capacity is the most commonly > considered bottleneck resource, middlebox state table entries are also > an important resource for an end system communication. Other resource > types may exist, and the guidelines are expected to comprehensively > discuss them. > It would be nice to add something about the fact that TCP strongly favours long-running flows over shorter flows and that this further exacerbates the problems of capacity sharing. Not sure if this should go here or in the first work item? > Applications use a variety of techniques to mitigate these concerns. > These techniques have not always been reviewed by the IETF and their > interaction with TCP dynamics is poorly understood. The WG will > document the known techniques, discussing the consequences and, where > appropriate, provide guidance to application designers. > > (3) The WG will discuss how to best take into account prior work in > the area. The outcome will be either incorporated into the document > specifying the experimental congestion control algorithm or into a > separate document summarizing prior work. > > > > Goals and Milestones > > TBD Submit "Multiple Transport Connections in Applications Design" to > the IESG for consideration as an Informational RFC > TBD Submit "Transport for Advanced Networking Applications (TANA)" to > the IESG for consideration as an Experimental RFC > > > Internet-Drafts > > Transport for Advanced Networking Applications (TANA) Problem Statement > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-shalunov-tana-problem- > statement-01.txt > > No Requests for Comments > > -- > Stanislav Shalunov > > > > _______________________________________________ > p2pi mailing list > p2pi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-RCN0)[VZ]
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Murari Sridharan
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] [tana] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Kurt Tutschku
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Menth
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Welzl
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Mark Allman
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bryan Ford
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking qu… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Livingood, Jason
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter -- packet… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Robb Topolski
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Robb Topolski