Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter
"Rolf Winter" <Rolf.Winter@nw.neclab.eu> Wed, 22 October 2008 09:49 UTC
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Thread-Topic: [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter
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From: Rolf Winter <Rolf.Winter@nw.neclab.eu>
To: Reinaldo Penno <rpenno@juniper.net>, Michael Welzl <michael.welzl@uibk.ac.at>, tana@ietf.org, p2pi@ietf.org, tsv-area@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter
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Inline. > >> > >> I'm not sure I'm reading the semantics of "Less than Best Effort" > >> like other folks. > >> > >> 'Best Effort' has a well-defined semantics in the scope of > Diffserv, > >> including a code point of its own. Less than best effort > seems we are > >> defining a code point for such applications. Are we? The charter > >> talks about 'end-to-end Diffserv'. > > > > I read this point in the charter differently. My interpretation is > > that if there is something available that helps you to achieve > > less-than-best-effort then please make use of it. TANA is not > > chartered to promote the global adoption of DiffServ for > this purpose. > > Let me ask it differently. Is a deliverable of the algorithm > to "desired feaures...where available, use explicit > congestion notification (ECN), active queue management (AQM), > and/or end-to-end differentiated services (DiffServ)." ? > > In other words, beside the immediate deliverable to provide > an algorithm that is delay bound, are we also going to > specify how this new algorithm "use" those other features? > How such a feature could be used is very likely already documented to a sufficient level of detail elsewhere. See e.g. the RFC Roland quoted earlier. I personally think TANA should focus on what can be achieved in the absence of these features. From a charter perspective, it would be wrong to neglect the existence of these features though. So if somebody feels that there is a significant gap that leaves a number of questions open on how TANA could make use of an existing technique then I believe there is room in the WG for that. DiffServ I personally feel might not meet that criteria. But it is a very good point you raise and maybe the charter could be made more explicit in that respect. > It could go either way, I'm just looking for clarification on > the scope of the problem. > > > >> > >> End-to-end diffserv is a challenge on its own given ISP > policies, etc. > >> > >> If the link is not saturated, are such application also treated as > >> 'less than best effort' by still being DSCP marked and treated > >> differently within routers? > >> > >> I would like if possible to decouple the 'less than best > effort', as > >> in diffserv, from the algorithm per se. > >> > >> Besides, there are ISPs that are worried about the effect that P2P > >> have on other applications when the link is saturated, but > otherwise > >> they do not care. P2P would be treated like best effort in > >> non-saturated situations (a more ECN type approach). > > > > That is exactly the point. P2P should not "harm" inelastic > traffic. In > > order to do that, queues should not build up as a > consequence of the P2P traffic. > > The charter according to my interpretation says that the > most suitable > > of the set of available means should be used or any > combination of it > > that makes sense. > > Inelastic as is VoIP? In this case instead of making P2P as > less than best effort you can mark VoIP with EF. So, there is > no need for "less than best effort" in this case from a > Diffserv perspective, only from a algorithmic perspective. Yes, if DiffServ is availabe you could do all sorts of things. > > Thanks, > > Reinaldo > > > > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Reinaldo > >> > >> > >> On 10/22/08 12:53 AM, "Michael Welzl" > >> <michael.welzl@uibk.ac.at> wrote: > >> > >>> I agree 100%, about both - charter and LETBET (which is > my favorite > >>> name proposal) > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> Michael > >>> > >>> > >>> On Wed, 2008-10-22 at 10:10 +0300, Salvatore Loreto wrote: > >>>> Hi, > >>>> > >>>> I also think the charter is very well scoped. > >>>> > >>>> However I'd like to see the *multiple connections* work item > >>>> elaborated and explained a little bit more! > >>>> > >>>> about the name proposal both "LETBET (LEss Than Best Effort > >>>> Transport)" and "Scavenger Network Congestion Protocols" > >> sound good proposal to me. > >>>> > >>>> /sal > >>>> > >>>> Michael Menth wrote: > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> > >>>>> I also find the charter good and like Ingemar's name proposal > >>>>> "LETBET (LEss Than Best Effort Transport)" > >>>>> > >>>>> Michael > >>>>> > >>>>> Ingemar Johansson S wrote: > >>>>>> Hi > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Even though I understand that it is better to focus on > >> the charter > >>>>>> than in the name I too beleieve that TANA does not say much. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I believe that somewhere along the track and also in > the charter > >>>>>> the term "less than best effort transmission" was/is > mentioned A > >>>>>> possible name would then be LETBET (LEss Than Best Effort > >>>>>> Transport) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> That said... there are a whole bunch of WG names out > >> there that at > >>>>>> first glance does not say anything about the group. > >>>>>> The charter looks OK from my perspective. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> /Ingemar > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org > >> [mailto:tsv-area-bounces@ietf.org] > >>>>>>> On Behalf Of Ted Faber > >>>>>>> Sent: den 21 oktober 2008 18:51 > >>>>>>> To: Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-RCN0)[VZ] > >>>>>>> Cc: TSV Area; tana@ietf.org; p2pi@ietf.org > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 09:12:10AM -0500, Eddy, Wesley M. > >>>>>>> (GRC-RCN0)[VZ] wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> But if nobody else has a problem with the TANA name, > >> I'll keep my > >>>>>>>> mouth shut so we don't waste time and energy. There are > >>>>>>> bigger fish to fry! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It should change. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I care about congestion control and nothing in the > expansion of > >>>>>>> TANA indicated it was about congestion (to me). > >>>>>>> NEC Europe Limited | Registered Office: NEC House, 1 Victoria Road, London W3 6BL | Registered in England 2832014 _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-RCN0)[VZ]
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Murari Sridharan
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] [tana] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Kurt Tutschku
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Menth
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Welzl
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Mark Allman
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bryan Ford
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking qu… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Livingood, Jason
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter -- packet… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Robb Topolski
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Robb Topolski