Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question
Bruce Davie <bdavie@cisco.com> Fri, 24 October 2008 20:34 UTC
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From: Bruce Davie <bdavie@cisco.com>
To: Laird Popkin <laird@pando.com>
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Cc: p2pi@ietf.org, tana@ietf.org, Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question
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It's actually not that easy to get a router and an access device (DSL modem or cable modem) to do the right thing when they are in separate boxes separated by an Ethernet: the router knows how to do smart queuing but there's no queue on the Ethernet; the access device isn't smart enough to do, say, Diffserv in its queue facing the uplink. (My home configuration works pretty well, but is so far from a typical home configuration that it's not worth talking about.) As was noted in the BoF in Dublin, getting well designed routers and access devices out into the world and properly configured, and getting all the end systems to use Diffserv marking is a solution that we're not likely to see soon. That is why the charter says that goals of the algorithm are: > * operate well in networks with FIFO queueing with drop-tail > discipline, > * where available, use explicit congestion notification (ECN), > active queue management (AQM), and/or end-to-end differentiated > services (DiffServ). The first bullet says "deal with the world as it is"; the second says "deal with the world as you wish it were" I think that is a very sensible approach. Bruce On Oct 24, 2008, at 1:35 PM, Laird Popkin wrote: > My understanding from talking with some vendors of home routers is > that if there were a standard for proper behavior in this area, they > would be happy to conform to it. But if there's not a standard, it's > hard for them to get engineers and sub-vendors to implement "be > smart". > > - Laird Popkin, CTO, Pando Networks > mobile: 646/465-0570 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Nicholas Weaver" <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU> > To: "John Leslie" <john@jlc.net> > Cc: p2pi@ietf.org, tana@ietf.org, "Nicholas Weaver" <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU > > > Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:24:49 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York > Subject: Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question > > > On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:12 AM, John Leslie wrote: >>> >>> >>> I start a full rate, SINGLE TCP flow to this remote system. The >>> ping >>> time jumps up to 3 seconds! Yes, the stupid NAT box or DSL modem >>> (not >>> sure which at this moment) has a 3 second packet buffer, and simple >>> FIFO behavior. Any full rate upload and I can kiss my connection >>> goodbye. Period. End of story. Have a nice day. >> >> Fortunately, the Linksys _could_ be easily programmed to fix that -- >> and if the problem becomes obvious enough to enough buyers, the >> competition will fix it... > > I disagree. > > I've had DSL or cable modem connectivity for damn-near a decade now. > And fixing it is easy: the data rates are trivial, the devices are > often programmable, and the solution straightforward: just have only > 30ms of packet buffer, not 3s. Yet these devices STILL have this > problem. > > And the only reason that as a clued user it would be fixable if its > the Linksys box is I DELIBERATELY purchased the version where I can > replace the firmware to fix something the vendors refused to fix for > themselves. And I just unplugged the linksys: its the DSL modem, > purchased within the past 2.5 years. > > (The reason its not a problem for me is I don't use P2P apps, and only > rarely upload large quantities of photos) > > So I think the conclusion should be there has been a market failure in > this area, and that absent a miracle, this problem will remain. > > _______________________________________________ > p2pi mailing list > p2pi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi > _______________________________________________ > p2pi mailing list > p2pi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Joe Touch
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Eddy, Wesley M. (GRC-RCN0)[VZ]
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Murari Sridharan
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Caitlin Bestler
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ted Faber
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] [tana] TANA proposed charter Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Salvatore Loreto
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Kurt Tutschku
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Ingemar Johansson S
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Menth
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Michael Welzl
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Roland Bless
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Rolf Winter
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Mark Allman
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Bryan Ford
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter Gorry Fairhurst
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking qu… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… John Leslie
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter Livingood, Jason
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] TANA proposed charter -- packet… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Robb Topolski
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet markin… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] [tana] [tsv-area] TANA proposed charter Robb Topolski