Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question

Laird Popkin <laird@pando.com> Fri, 24 October 2008 17:34 UTC

Return-Path: <p2pi-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: p2pi-archive@ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-p2pi-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53B0B3A6BB0; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:34:04 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: p2pi@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: p2pi@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11B7B3A6BE4; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:34:03 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -10.265
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.265 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, HABEAS_ACCREDITED_COI=-8, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SvdFQ3WXE8eB; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from dkny.pando.com (dkny.pando.com [67.99.55.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 157153A687D; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 10:34:02 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by dkny.pando.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C4A0E10DDB; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
Received: from dkny.pando.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (dkny.pando.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7UnIeHzit5HO; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Received: from dkny.pando.com (dkny.pando.com [10.10.60.11]) by dkny.pando.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2221E10D4A; Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:35:23 -0400 (EDT)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 13:35:23 -0400
From: Laird Popkin <laird@pando.com>
To: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
Message-ID: <8043274.398381224869723771.JavaMail.root@dkny.pando.com>
In-Reply-To: <13265179-F62E-480F-B233-0F6160EC5701@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
MIME-Version: 1.0
X-Originating-IP: [10.10.20.77]
Cc: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>, tana@ietf.org, p2pi@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question
X-BeenThere: p2pi@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: P2P Infrastructure Discussion <p2pi.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi>, <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/p2pi>
List-Post: <mailto:p2pi@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi>, <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org

My understanding from talking with some vendors of home routers is that if there were a standard for proper behavior in this area, they would be happy to conform to it. But if there's not a standard, it's hard for them to get engineers and sub-vendors to implement "be smart".

- Laird Popkin, CTO, Pando Networks
  mobile: 646/465-0570

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicholas Weaver" <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
To: "John Leslie" <john@jlc.net>
Cc: p2pi@ietf.org, tana@ietf.org, "Nicholas Weaver" <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 1:24:49 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
Subject: Re: [p2pi] TANA proposed charter -- packet marking question


On Oct 24, 2008, at 9:12 AM, John Leslie wrote:
>>
>>
>> I start a full rate, SINGLE TCP flow to this remote system.  The ping
>> time jumps up to 3 seconds!  Yes, the stupid NAT box or DSL modem  
>> (not
>> sure which at this moment) has a 3 second packet buffer, and simple
>> FIFO behavior.  Any full rate upload and I can kiss my connection
>> goodbye.  Period.  End of story.  Have a nice day.
>
>   Fortunately, the Linksys _could_ be easily programmed to fix that --
> and if the problem becomes obvious enough to enough buyers, the
> competition will fix it...

I disagree.

I've had DSL or cable modem connectivity for damn-near a decade now.   
And fixing it is easy: the data rates are trivial, the devices are  
often programmable, and the solution straightforward: just have only  
30ms of packet buffer, not 3s.  Yet these devices STILL have this  
problem.

And the only reason that as a clued user it would be fixable if its  
the Linksys box is I DELIBERATELY purchased the version where I can  
replace the firmware to fix something the vendors refused to fix for  
themselves.  And I just unplugged the linksys: its the DSL modem,  
purchased within the past 2.5 years.

(The reason its not a problem for me is I don't use P2P apps, and only  
rarely upload large quantities of photos)

So I think the conclusion should be there has been a market failure in  
this area, and that absent a miracle, this problem will remain.

_______________________________________________
p2pi mailing list
p2pi@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
_______________________________________________
p2pi mailing list
p2pi@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi