Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol
Lisa Dusseault <ldusseault@commerce.net> Wed, 27 August 2008 17:18 UTC
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From: Lisa Dusseault <ldusseault@commerce.net>
To: David R Oran <oran@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol
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On Aug 27, 2008, at 9:58 AM, David R Oran wrote: > > On Aug 27, 2008, at 12:51 PM, Lisa Dusseault wrote: >> >> On Aug 25, 2008, at 12:25 PM, David R Oran wrote: >>> >>> Many client/server protocols are were initially designed to be >>> strictly two party, with no architectural support for proxies or >>> other >>> stateful intermediaries (HTTP and RTSP come to mind...there are >>> likely >>> many others). >>> >>> It may behoove us to build proxy capability into ALTO from day 1, >>> since it will almost inevitably have to be added later at some level >>> of pain, perhaps large, and almost assuredly some undesirable >>> security >>> tradeoffs. >> >> You're making the assumption now, that ALTO will need to add >> proxies or intermediaries ("will almost inevitability"). I don't >> really have evidence that you're wrong about that, but I also don't >> see the use cases right now. Do you have anything specific in mind? >> This helps, and leads to more questions... > Yeah: > 1. my ISP runs a redirector to their "transparent" ALTO server so I > can't get directly to the one I want to get to. How does this use case affect protocol design in the short term? Other than the agreed principles of good design, I mean. An ISP can run any kind of internal protocol and we're a long way away from generalized interoperability between agents deployed within an ISP. > > 2. My P2P "community" wants to cache and do lookaside stuff to > provide more globally optimized swarm spreading. So, I use their > Alto "proxy" and let them help decide who needs to be asked for what. This is a use case I've been talking to people about in a different context, and it's a difficult one. If the swarm's Alto server can ask as itself for useful information, probably public information, then that's easy. But if the swarm's Alto server has to ask for information "on behalf of" a swarm member, then we have difficult delegation and permission issues. I had assumed we wouldn't want to tackle that in the first batch of ALTO work. But even if the swarm's Alto server can get information from other places, publically or through delegation, and compile that or forward it, the next thing to bring into question is whether the end consumer of the information needs to know where the information came from originally. I don't even know what lesson one can draw from HTTP but I'd probably be able to put up a good argument for learning that proxy information is mostly useless. Most proxy and forwarding information that actually appears in HTTP traffic is ignored by clients, and most traffic does not even go through non-transparent proxies. IOW, most proxying of HTTP, and all compiling of responses, happens transparently, and does not use the protocol headers that were designed for handling intermediaries. As devil's advocate I'm now prepared for my argument to be totally demolished... Lisa > > > >>> >>> >>> This probably involves at least the following: >>> - separating our end-to-end from ho--by hop (transport layer?) >>> security >>> - clear data model separation between things used to "route" >>> requests >>> and things used to interpret queries. >>> - a flexible addressing model >>> - a way to aggregate and summarize in responses >> >> These are good architectural principles to remember while writing >> and reviewing drafts, assuming they can be followed without falling >> into the trap of designing the be-all and end-all system. >> >> -- Lisa >> >>> _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vinay Aggarwal
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol chsoft
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vinay Aggarwal
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Sebastian Kiesel
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Fabio Hecht
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Griffiths, Chris
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol The 8472
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Salman Abdul Baset