Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optimization (alto)
Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com> Fri, 10 October 2008 21:51 UTC
Return-Path: <p2pi-bounces@ietf.org>
X-Original-To: p2pi-archive@ietf.org
Delivered-To: ietfarch-p2pi-archive@core3.amsl.com
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09EC3A6AAC; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:51:00 -0700 (PDT)
X-Original-To: p2pi@core3.amsl.com
Delivered-To: p2pi@core3.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1316D3A6967; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:50:59 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -103.227
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.227 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.372, BAYES_00=-2.599, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100]
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3qimd-R5Glsd; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from multicasttech.com (lennon.multicasttech.com [63.105.122.7]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 938BC3A6A6F; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [63.105.122.7] (account marshall_eubanks HELO [IPv6:::1]) by multicasttech.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 3.4.8) with ESMTP-TLS id 13330053; Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:51:44 -0400
Message-Id: <01D538D0-081C-448C-9E7D-B50A1699F07A@multicasttech.com>
From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@multicasttech.com>
To: "Vijay K. Gurbani" <vkg@alcatel-lucent.com>
In-Reply-To: <48EFC9B0.8040609@alcatel-lucent.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v929.2)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:51:43 -0400
References: <20081006203532.B1D673A68AF@core3.amsl.com> <C27FC19F-A2AC-46D2-97F8-E45FF54FB377@multicasttech.com> <48EFC9B0.8040609@alcatel-lucent.com>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.929.2)
Cc: "p2pi@ietf.org" <p2pi@ietf.org>, ietf@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optimization (alto)
X-BeenThere: p2pi@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9
Precedence: list
List-Id: P2P Infrastructure Discussion <p2pi.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi>, <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/p2pi>
List-Post: <mailto:p2pi@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi>, <mailto:p2pi-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed"; DelSp="yes"
Sender: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org
Errors-To: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org
Dear Vijay; On Oct 10, 2008, at 5:31 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote: > Marshall Eubanks wrote: >> I support this moving forward. My reading of the room in Dublin was >> that there was serious support for this and certainly a critical mass >> to move forward. > > Marshall: Thank you for your review. More inline. > >> Some comments in the charter below. This document clearly needs some >> more work. As a overall comment, I think it is premature to discuss >> ALTO "servers" and would keep the charter focused on describing the >> ALTO "service." > > In an earlier reply to Vidya I note that the charter does indeed > predominantly refer to "ALTO services" over "ALTO server". > Having said that, if I did not convince you through that > argument, then we can leave the "s/ALTO server/ALTO service" > discussion on the table. > >> I do not see consensus at this moment as to a central >> service solution versus a distributed solution. > > Agreed. To me, this agreement answers the previous point. (Servers presupposes the answer, service does not IMO.) > > >> s/choose/choose the best peer or peers to exchange data with/ > > Unfortunately, in the Dublin BoF charter, we did state best peer > (we had termed it "optimal" peer). This was one reason for the > negative hums in the BoF because people have differing notion of > what an "optimal" (or best) peer is. Thus, we reverted to the > non-confrontational use of the phrase that you now see in the > charter. OK, but is doesn't read well : In contrast to client/server architectures, P2P applications often have a selection of peers and must choose. There is a missing object. How about must choose one or more peers from this selection. ? > > >>> - A request/response protocol for querying the ALTO service to >>> obtain information useful for peer selection, and a format for >>> requests and responses. The WG does not require intermediaries >>> between the ALTO >> This is strange wording, as WG themselves are not protocols. >> More fundamentally, is this a requirement? > > No. We had some list discussion on whether or not to include > intermediaries, but the resolution of that discussion appeared > to be no (please see the few emails around the following > link: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/p2pi/current/ > msg00635.html). How about s/The WG does not/In scope solutions do not/ > > >>> - Can the ALTO service technically provide that information? >> I think that what is meant here is "Can the ALTO service >> realistically discover that information?" > > OK. > >>> - Is the ALTO service willing to obtain and divulge that >>> information? >> Do computers have free will? > > AI notwithstanding ;-) But point taken; we can attempt a > reword (if you have any suggestions, please throw them our way.) > Whose will ? This gets to a crucial difference between a central server and a distributed system. If it is a central server, then the owner of that server gets a vote here, and maybe a veto. It it is distributed service, then the owners of the peers will ultimately decide this. How about - Is the ALTO service technically able to obtain that information, and is the distribution of that information allowed by the operators of that service ? >>> After these criteria are met, the generality of the data will be >> What is meant by "the generality of the data" ? >>> considered for prioritizing standardization work, for example the > > Hmmm ... since we are talking about prioritizing, maybe what is > meant is "importance" -- as in "importance of the service" -- > may be a better fit. Comments? > WFM >>> number of operators and clients that are likely to be able to >>> provide or use that particular data. In any case, this WG will not >>> propose standards on how congestion is signaled, remediated, or >>> avoided, and >> Does this mean that congestion is not an issue to consider ? > > It is, but not in ALTO. That will be part of TANA. > ACK >> If the closest peer to me was totally congested and had no available >> bandwidth, isn't that something that I would want to know ? >>> will not deal with information representing instantaneous network >>> state. >> What is meant by "information representing instantaneous network >> state" ? Isn't this a protocol to share information about the state >> of the network ? Or is this an attempt to separate network topology >> from network performance ? But should network performance also be an >> issue ? > > By and large, it has been the case that that instantaneous > network characteristics -- like current link usage, congestion, > etc. -- are not be part of ALTO; they will be part of TANA. > Hence, congestion control was deemed out of scope. > OK. This WFM now. >> What is an Internet coordinate system? > > Things like IDMaps, GNP, Vivaldi, etc. Should we define this > term in the charter? > I was not aware of this work. Thanks for alerting me to it. Regards Marshall > Thanks, Marshall. > > - vijay > -- > Vijay K. Gurbani, Bell Laboratories, Alcatel-Lucent > 1960 Lucent Lane, Rm. 9C-533, Naperville, Illinois 60566 (USA) > Email: vkg@{alcatel-lucent.com,bell-labs.com,acm.org} > WWW: http://www.alcatel-lucent.com/bell-labs _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optim… IESG Secretary
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Sam Hartman
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Richard Barnes
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Daniel Park
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Jan Seedorf
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Jan Seedorf
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Karl Auerbach
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Pekka Savola
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Michael J. Freedman
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Dean Anderson
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Yu-Shun Wang
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Yu-Shun Wang