Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol
stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com> Fri, 12 September 2008 09:06 UTC
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Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:05:36 +0200
From: stefano previdi <sprevidi@cisco.com>
To: Laird Popkin <laird@pando.com>, Salman Abdul Baset <sa2086@columbia.edu>
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Thread-Topic: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol
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Cc: Richard Woundy <Richard_Woundy@cable.comcast.com>, p2pi@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol
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> From: Laird Popkin <laird@pando.com> > > (1) If an ISP configures their ALTO server to tell applications that the > users' uplink is less than it really is, I think that could have two effects. > For users inside the ISP, it would tend to suppress internal traffic and cause > peers to download from external peers, which is probably bad for the ISP. And > it might tend to cause peers from outside the ISP to shift traffic elsewhere > to some degree, which would reduce uplink utilization, which would be an > incentive to 'aim low'. How these two factors would balance out would depend > on the ISP's infrastructure. ... and on the ISP ALTO strategy. Nothing prevents an ISP to configure his ALTO server in order answer to identical requests using some form of statistical-balancing preference. Multiple ISPs may want to cooperate by establishing ALTO policies among their servers. > (2) I don't believe that the p2p network would have to decide that the ISP's > ALTO server was 'lying'. P2P networks all currently measure observed > throughput between peers and use that to make decisions. If they add ALTO > provisioning information, I would expect that they would treat observed > throughput as being more true than the ALTO guidance. So without having to > make a decision about 'ALTO lying' the p2p network would tend to take > advantage of good ALTO guidance (because ALTO guidance and p2p performance > optimization reinforce each other) and would tend to cancel out bad ALTO > guidance (because the p2p performance optimization would end up overruling the > ALTO guidance). I agree. What matters at the end of the day, is the measured experience... s. > > - Laird Popkin, CTO, Pando Networks > mobile: 646/465-0570 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Salman Abdul Baset" <sa2086@columbia.edu> > To: "Laird Popkin" <laird@pando.com> > Cc: "Richard Woundy" <Richard_Woundy@cable.comcast.com>, p2pi@ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 3:46:10 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York > Subject: Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol > > This raises at least two issues: > >> Playing devil's advocate, while ALTO doesn't provide a mechanism for ISP A >> to tell non-customers anything, but it is possible for the p2p network >> as a whole to make decisions based on information provided by ALTO. For >> example, if ISP A says that its users have bad uplink, and ISP B says >> that its customers have great uplink, then the rest of the internet will >> tend to download more from ISP B than A. > > (1) Do ISPs have an incentive to lie to their customers that their uplink > is bad? > > This will be counter-balanced >> in that if, in practice, ISP A has fine uplink, the p2p network will >> figure that out and use those peers anyway, ignoring the misleading ALTO >> guidance, because observed behavior has (IMO) more 'weight' than ALTO >> guidance. > > (2) Do P2P applications must determine if an ISP ALTO server is lying? > > Note, that misconfiguration can also be a cause of ALTO server providing > misleading information. > > -s > > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Richard Woundy" <Richard_Woundy@cable.comcast.com> >> To: "Reinaldo Penno" <rpenno@juniper.net>, "Laird Popkin" <laird@pando.com> >> Cc: p2pi@ietf.org >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:52:06 PM (GMT-0500) America/New_York >> Subject: RE: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol >> >>> I was wondering if he was assuming some kind inter-ALTO communication. >> >> I guess I was. And perhaps Laird's points address my ISP traffic >> management concerns -- I'm willing to concede. >> >> Still worried about user privacy, though. >> >> -- Rich >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: p2pi-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:p2pi-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of >> Reinaldo Penno >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 2:31 PM >> To: Laird Popkin; Woundy, Richard >> Cc: p2pi@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol >> >> That was going to be my observation to Rich's point as well. I was >> wondering >> if he was assuming some kind inter-ALTO communication. But even if >> existed >> it would not be Internet wide. >> >> >> On 9/11/08 11:26 AM, "Laird Popkin" <laird@pando.com> wrote: >> >>> The other issue is that ALTO is anticipated to be used by ISPs to >> provide >>> guidance to their own users. ALTO can't provide guidance to customers >> of other >>> ISPs. So ISP A cannot tell the rest of the internet to pull data from >> ISP B >>> but not ISP A. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> p2pi mailing list >> p2pi@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi >> _______________________________________________ >> p2pi mailing list >> p2pi@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi >> > _______________________________________________ > p2pi mailing list > p2pi@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vinay Aggarwal
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol chsoft
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vinay Aggarwal
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Sebastian Kiesel
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Fabio Hecht
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Spencer Dawkins
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol David R Oran
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Reinaldo Penno
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Salman Abdul Baset
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Griffiths, Chris
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol The 8472
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] Information in an ALTO protocol Salman Abdul Baset