Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optimization (alto)
"Michael J. Freedman" <mfreed@CS.Princeton.EDU> Wed, 22 October 2008 00:12 UTC
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Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:12:35 -0400
From: "Michael J. Freedman" <mfreed@CS.Princeton.EDU>
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To: Nicholas Weaver <nweaver@ICSI.Berkeley.EDU>
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Cc: "p2pi@ietf.org" <p2pi@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optimization (alto)
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Nicholas Weaver wrote: > Ono is leveraging off Akamai's DNS information: You do a few queries to > akamai'ed (and other CDN'ed) domains, and use the results as a > coordinate space. > > The question is the simpler coordinate: "who's MY resolver and who else > uses it". CoralCDN did something very similar to this at first. In fact, in addition to inserting a <DNS resolver, serverid> entry in the Coral DHT, it also tracerouted the resolver (of our proxy servers). If the resulting last-hop IP addresses were a "relatively good match" for the resolver, we would store these "network topology" hints in our DHT as well. (This conditional check was to avoid cases when "last traceroute-able hops" were quite distant from the destination, especially given the fact that many hosts and routers don't actually reply to traceroute probes these days.) The goal of this was to perform topological clustering of our peers, much as you suggest: When a client would perform a DNS request, we would synchronously traceroute the client's DNS resolver (we built a very fast tool that would return in ~2 network RTTs), do a DHT lookup on these the resolver and its last hops, and use any returned information in our selection of "nearby" CoralCDN web proxies. Unfortunately, it didn't really work. I can't cite the precise numbers off-hand, but we were seeing hit rates in the low single-digits. Thus, the delay clients were experiencing for all this network hackery was totally out-of-proportion to its benefit. (And when this hackery would occasionally take more than two seconds, the client's DNS resolver would happily reissue DNS requests to other Coral DNS servers, losing all the previous work already done.) In short, we stopped using this technique after CoralCDN was deployed for a few months. In fact, the experience of needing to return accurate responses very quickly led us to design and build another system, OASIS, that tries to build stable network maps that other services can use as a peer-selection oracle. Now, one should be careful in trying to extend these lessons to the P2P file-sharing setting, as CoralCDN focused on web content, thus had much tighter latency requirements than a lot of file-sharing applications. Second, our use of a decentralized DHT, especially deployed on flaky PlanetLab servers, made meta-data loss more prevalent than one might find in cluster storage. Third, and perhaps most importantly, the "CoralCDN proxies" we were mapping clients to were largely deployed on university networks, while our client population was well-distributed over the entire Internet: at the time, 100,000s-1M distinct clients IP addresses (and 10,000s of distinct DNS resolvers) per day. On the flip side, I wouldn't completely discount these results. Many of the very peers that contribute large amounts of upstream bandwidth on P2P systems are *also* on university networks (both because of their high upstream capacity and their lack of NATing compared to home users). As an aside, ALTO seems to have many similar goals as the IETF SONAR/HOPs work in the mid-to-late 90s, although perhaps with more focus on ISP buy-in. Thoughts? Regards, --mike References: CoralCDN, http://www.coralcdn.org/ NSDI 2004 paper: http://www.coralcdn.org/docs/coral-nsdi04.pdf OASIS, http://oasis.coralcdn.org/ NSDI 2006 paper: http://www.coralcdn.org/docs/oasis-nsdi06.pdf > On Oct 21, 2008, at 2:05 PM, Vijay K. Gurbani wrote: > >> Nicholas Weaver wrote: >>> Hey, stupid thought... >>> Could you do proximity based on "who's your DNS resolver"? Do a few >>> name lookups: one to register YOU as using YOUR DNS resolver to the >>> remote coordinator, and one to get "who are other peers using the >>> same resolver"? >>> An ugly, UGLY hack, but it might be interesting to think about. >>> Has anyone done this already? >> >> Doesn't Ono [1] do that? Or am I missing something? CDNs also >> use DNS redirects to redirect clients to nearest servers. >> >> [1] David R. Choffnes and Fabián E. Bustamante. Taming the Torrent: >> A practical approach to reducing cross-ISP traffic in P2P >> systems, Proc. of ACM SIGCOMM 2008, August 2008. _______________________________________________ p2pi mailing list p2pi@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/p2pi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic Optim… IESG Secretary
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Sam Hartman
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Richard Barnes
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Daniel Park
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… stefano previdi
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Bruce Davie
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Alissa Cooper
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Marshall Eubanks
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lakshminath Dondeti
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Martin Stiemerling
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Jan Seedorf
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Jan Seedorf
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lars Eggert
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Ye WANG
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Philip Levis
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Song Haibin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Lisa Dusseault
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Enrico Marocco
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… toby.moncaster
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Laird Popkin
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Karl Auerbach
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Pekka Savola
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Vijay K. Gurbani
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Das, Saumitra
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Stanislav Shalunov
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Michael J. Freedman
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Dean Anderson
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Yu-Shun Wang
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Nicholas Weaver
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Woundy, Richard
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Narayanan, Vidya
- Re: [p2pi] WG Review: Application-Layer Traffic O… Yu-Shun Wang