Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter
"Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com> Mon, 04 February 2019 23:00 UTC
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From: "Grossman, Ethan A." <eagros@dolby.com>
To: "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, "Cavalcanti, Dave" <dave.cavalcanti@intel.com>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: tentative PAW charter
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Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 23:00:39 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter
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Hi Pascal, I have a couple of general comments, and if we agree in principle then if needed I could provide some specific text. 1) Since this is an IETF project I think the use cases you mention in the opening paragraph should be IP use cases (as opposed to TSN use cases like automotive) - I would stick with a subset of the DetNet Use Cases (not that I'm biased). 2) The phrase about "implement the scheduled aspect of the 6TiSCH Architecture" seems too specific to 6TiSCH, given the clarification below that we would be considering scheduled wireless in general. I mean, so as not to give the impression that we are just serving that specific technology (that you happen to be heavily involved in). Ethan. -----Original Message----- From: Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Monday, February 4, 2019 3:21 AM To: Cavalcanti, Dave <dave.cavalcanti@intel.com>; paw@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Dear all: Please find below the reworded text. Comments welcome! Deterministic Networking is getting traction in multiple industries (manufacturing, vehicle automation, professional A/V, gaming) with recent developments in wired technologies (IEEE 802.1 TSN, IETF DetNet), enabling the promises of the IT/OT convergence. Deterministic Networking in the IP world is an attempt to eliminate packet loss for a committed bandwidth while ensuring a worst case end-to-end latency, regardless of the network conditions and across technologies. IP networks become more deterministic when the effects of statistical multiplexing (jitter and collision loss) are eliminated. This requires a tight control of the physical resources to maintain the amount of traffic within the physical capabilities of the underlying technology, e.g., by the use of time-shared resources (bandwidth and buffers) per circuit, and/or by shaping and/or scheduling the packets at every hop. Wireless operates on a shared medium, and transmissions cannot be fully deterministic due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced multipath fading. But scheduling enables to alleviate those effects by leveraging diversity in the spatial, time and frequency domains, and provide a more Predictable and Available Wireless (PAW) service. The wireless and wired media are fundamentally different at the physical level, and while the generic Problem Statement for DetNet applies to the wireless medium as well as to wires, the methods to achieve PAW necessarily differ from those used to support Time-Sensitive Networking over wires. The development of PAW technologies was so far lagging behind that of wires both at the IEEE and the IETF. But recent efforts at the IEEE and 3GPP indicate that wireless is finally catching up at the lower layer and that time has come for the IETF to extend DetNet to wireless and implement the scheduled aspect of the 6TiSCH Architecture. PAW will centralize efforts that inherit from DetNet and 6TiSCH but focus on scheduled wireless. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. It will focus on enabling PAW connectivity over the following selection of deterministic wireless technologies: IEEE Std. 802.15.4 timeslotted channel hopping (TSCH), 3GPP 5G ultra-reliable low latency communications (URLLC), IEEE 802.11 extreme high throughput (EHT) and the L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS). The group will: 1) Produce Informational work describing deterministic wireless use cases, in continuation to the DetNet use cases document 2) Produce Informational work describing the technologies that the group will cover (5G, TSCH, RTA and LDACS) 3) Produce a Standards Track document to define the generic data models to install a PAW flow along a Track providing Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions with Spatial, Frequency and Time diversity in a Scheduled FD/TDMA wireless Network. 4) Produce a Standards Track document to enable some operations, administration and maintenance (OAM) inside a PAW network, providing packet loss evaluation and automated adaptation to enable a trade off between resilience and energy spending. What do you think? Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: lundi 4 février 2019 08:23 To: 'Cavalcanti, Dave' <dave.cavalcanti@intel.com>; paw@ietf.org Subject: RE: tentative PAW charter Many thanks Dave, I'll update the tentative charter accordingly (s/RTA/EHT). All the best, Pascal -----Original Message----- From: Cavalcanti, Dave <dave.cavalcanti@intel.com> Sent: vendredi 1 février 2019 17:59 To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; paw@ietf.org Subject: RE: tentative PAW charter Hi Pascal and All, Thanks for sharing the draft charter. Here is an update on the related activities in the IEEE 802.11 working group: The RTA TIG is finalizing a report that includes several time-sensitive use cases, requirements and potential solutions/areas for enhancements in 802.11 to better support RTA/TSN applications. Here is the link to the draft report: https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/dcn/18/11-18-2009-04-0rta-rta-report-draft.docx The group arrived to a consensus in the January meeting that the work to be done in support of RTA should be done in the upcoming 802.11 EHT group (currently EHT is a Study Group and it is expected to be a new TG in May). The RTA TIG will finalize its report and conclude its activities in the next meeting (March), and the work will continue in EHT. Given this status, we could leverage the use cases/requirements defined by the RTA TIG, but we should avoid pointing to 802.11 RTA as a new solution, this may give the wrong impression that there will be a new 802.11 RTA specific amendment. Going forward, we should refer to 802.11 EHT as the group that will develop new MAC/PHY capabilities and address the RTA/TSN requirements. Thanks Dave -----Original Message----- From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert (pthubert) Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2019 6:40 AM To: paw@ietf.org Subject: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Dear all: As you know, we asked for a non-WG forming BoF at IETF 103 in Prague. If we are successful there, the aim is for a WG-forming BoF in Montreal. This really means that Prague is our chance to prepare for the real deal in Montreal, where we will have to show realistic goals and a critical mass of people to achieve them. The core of the Montreal meeting will be the charter discussion. We'll present the technologies we support, and the documents we want to produce. The work on the charter must start now, so we can narrow it down at IEF 103 and present it mostly complete at IETF 104. Based on early discussions at the Bar-BoF in Bangkok, please find below a for shot at the charter. Comments welcome! Early PAW charter v0.1 ------------------------------- Deterministic IP Networks are getting traction in multiple industries (manufacturing, vehicle automation, professional A/V, gaming) with new developments in wired technologies (IEEE 802.1 TSN, IETF DetNet), enabling the promises of the IT/OT convergence. A perfect Deterministic IP Network would ensure that a bounded throughput of IP packets reaches its destination within a guaranteed time. In an imperfect world, Deterministic Networking is an attempt to eliminate packet loss for a committed bandwidth while ensuring a worst case end-to-end latency, regardless of the network conditions and across technologies. Networks become more deterministic when the effects of statistical multiplexing are eliminated. This can be achieved by maintaining the amount of traffic within the physical capabilities of the technology, e.g., by the use of time-shared resources (bandwidth and buffers) per circuit, and/or by shaping and/or scheduling the packets at every hop. Other types of physical-domain issue, e.g., a radio interference, a broken interface adapter, or an unplugged physical wire, can also be a source of data loss. When such breakage occurs, multiple packets are lost in a row before a flow is rerouted or the system recovers. Whereas random packet loss can be solved by packet redundancy techniques (FEC, ARQ) these systemic issues a require higher-level redundancy at the path level. People might argue that wireless cannot be fully "deterministic" due to uncontrolled interferences, including the self-induced multipath fading. At least it is possible to provide a more Predictable and Available Wireless service by scheduling transmissions. Scheduling enables to create diversity in the network in the spatial (multipath), time (scheduling) and frequency (hopping) domains, and get around all forms of interferences. The development of deterministic wireless technologies was so far lagging behind that of wires both at the IEEE and the IETF. But recent advances (3GPP 5G, IEEE 802.11 ART, IEEE 802.15.4 TSCH, as well as proprietary and military approaches) indicate that wireless is finally catching up at the lower layer and that time has come for the IETF to implement the 6TiSCH Architecture and extend DetNet to wireless interfaces. The Working Group will leverage cross-participation with the associated set of stakeholders to ensure that the work taking place corresponds to real demands and that the proposed solutions are indeed applicable. It will focus on enabling PAW connectivity over the following selection of deterministic wireless technologies: 3GPP 5G, IEEE Real Time Application (RTA) 802.11 TIG, IEEE Std. 802.15.4 TSCH and possibly the L-band Digital Aeronautical Communications System (LDACS). The group will: 1) Produce Informational work describing deterministic wireless use cases, in continuation to the DetNet use cases document 2) Produce Informational work describing the technologies that the group will cover (5G, TSCH, RTA and LDACS) 3) Produce a Standards Track document to define the generic data models to install a PAW flow along a Track providing Packet Replication, Elimination and Ordering Functions with Spatial, Frequency and Time diversity in a Scheduled FD/TDMA wireless Network. 4) Produce a Standards Track document to enable some operations, administration and maintenance (OAM) inside a PAW network, providing packet loss evaluation and automated adaptation to enable a trade off between resilience and energy spending. ----------------------------- Cheers, Pascal -- Paw mailing list Paw@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw -- Paw mailing list Paw@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw
- [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Cavalcanti, Dave
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Grossman, Ethan A.
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Jerome Henry (jerhenry)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Shankar Ramanathan (shankram)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] tentative PAW charter Grossman, Ethan A.