Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
"Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl> Fri, 05 April 2019 12:33 UTC
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From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>
Date: Fri, 05 Apr 2019 09:33:09 -0300
Message-ID: <CAH7SZV--KiFJb_XGrBQu1+TsyqHc5j3kJaH-CtfKX4eYe+X8Yg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>
Cc: "Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja)" <mutaneja@cisco.com>, Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <xvilajosana@uoc.edu>, AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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All, Pascal's question just kept me thinking what a RAW network would look like. From the meaning of RAW, I think that what we are looking for is totally the opposite: A predictable behavior in terms of reliability and delay. If this is not taken into account, then RAW sounds simple and easy to remember. Regards, Diego Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 09:21, Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr> a écrit : > I have a slight preference for RAW. > > Fabrice > > > Le 5 avr. 2019 à 14:19, Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja) <mutaneja@cisco.com> a > écrit : > > > I am for something like – SRAW with S from SPWAN (for Scheduled). > > Thanks, > Mukesh > > *From: *Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Xavi Vilajosana Guillen < > xvilajosana@uoc.edu> > *Date: *Friday, 5 April 2019 at 5:42 PM > *To: *AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr> > *Cc: *"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Juliusz > Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, > "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>, "paw@ietf.org" < > paw@ietf.org>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" < > ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com> > *Subject: *Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW > > Same here. RAW is shorter and easier to spell. > > regards > Xavi > > Missatge de AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr> del dia dv., 5 > d’abr. 2019 a les 14:01: > > Hi Pascal, All, > > I am in favor of RAW. > > Regards > > Vincent > > <image001.png> > > *Vincent AUDEBERT* > *Research Engineer* > EDF – R&D Lab Saclay > MIRE > 7 Bd Gaspard Monge > 91120 PALAISEAU > > *vincent.audebert@edf.fr <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>* > Phone : + 33 1 78 19 45 64 > Mobile : + 33 6 14 13 23 22 > <image002.gif> > Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en > avez l'utilité. > > > *De :* Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de* > pthubert@cisco.com > *Envoyé :* vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59 > *À :* Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>; Hesham ElBakoury < > Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> > *Cc :* Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; paw@ietf.org; Juliusz Chroboczek < > jch@irif.fr>; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com> > *Objet :* Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW > > Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW. > What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network? > > All the best, > > Pascal > > *From:* Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Prof. Diego Dujovne > *Sent:* vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51 > *To:* Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com> > *Cc:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>; Lou Berger < > lberger@labn.net>;paw@ietf.org; Venkatesan, Ganesh < > ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> > *Subject:* Re: [Paw] Renaming > > Pascal, > Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming > topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both > items are really relevant to the group and deserve their > individual space. > Regards, > > Diego Dujovne > > Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com > <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei..com>> a écrit : > > There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "*Reliability, > Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers*". > It is available from Wiley. > > Hesham > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert > (pthubert) > Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM > To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> > Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>; paw@ietf.org; Venkatesan, Ganesh < > ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com> > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming > > > > Hello Juliusz: > > > > Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as a response to > your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar > (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of > 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions > Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as > long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be > recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for > burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P > (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But > the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors > with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on > radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc... > > > > There's enough stats for is in > https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf > to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a > product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This > could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic, > and then an RFC would summarize that. > > > > What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless > reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides > terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the > topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : ) > > > > All the best, > > > > Pascal > > > > More links: > > > http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf > > > https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ > > > > https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability > <https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr> > > > Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40 > > > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com> > > > Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>; Lou Berger > > > <lberger@labn.net>; paw@ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming > > > > > > > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and > > > > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or > > > > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the > > > > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec > for us. > > > > > > I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent. > > > You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and > statistics. > > > > > > -- Juliusz > > > > -- > > Paw mailing list > > Paw@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/paw > <https://www..ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw> > -- > Paw mailing list > Paw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw > > > > -- > DIEGO DUJOVNE > Profesor Asociado > Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones > Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile > www.ingenieria.udp.cl > (56 2) 676 8125 > > > Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes (ci-après le 'Message') sont > établis à l'intention exclusive des destinataires et les informations qui y > figurent sont strictement confidentielles. Toute utilisation de ce Message > non conforme à sa destination, toute diffusion ou toute publication totale > ou partielle, est interdite sauf autorisation expresse. > > Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire de ce Message, il vous est interdit de > le copier, de le faire suivre, de le divulguer ou d'en utiliser tout ou > partie. Si vous avez reçu ce Message par erreur, merci de le supprimer de > votre système, ainsi que toutes ses copies, et de n'en garder aucune trace > sur quelque support que ce soit. Nous vous remercions également d'en > avertir immédiatement l'expéditeur par retour du message. > > Il est impossible de garantir que les communications par messagerie > électronique arrivent en temps utile, sont sécurisées ou dénuées de toute > erreur ou virus. > ____________________________________________________ > > This message and any attachments (the 'Message') are intended solely for > the addressees. The information contained in this Message is confidential. > Any use of information contained in this Message not in accord with its > purpose, any dissemination or disclosure, either whole or partial, is > prohibited except formal approval. > > If you are not the addressee, you may not copy, forward, disclose or use > any part of it. If you have received this message in error, please delete > it and all copies from your system and notify the sender immediately by > return message. > > E-mail communication cannot be guaranteed to be timely secure, error or > virus-free. > -- > Paw mailing list > Paw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw > > > > -- > *Dr. Xavier Vilajosana* > Wireless Networks Lab > > *Internet Interdisciplinary Institute (IN3)Professor* > (+34) 646 633 681 > xvilajosana@uoc.edu <usuari@uoc.edu> > http://xvilajosana.org > http://wine.rdi.uoc.edu <http://wine.rdi..uoc.edu/> > Parc Mediterrani de la Tecnologia > Av Carl Friedrich Gauss 5, B3 Building > 08860 Castelldefels (Barcelona). Catalonia. Spain > [image: Image removed by sender. Universitat Oberta de Catalunya] [image: > Image removed by sender.] > -- > Paw mailing list > Paw@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/paw > > > -- DIEGO DUJOVNE Profesor Asociado Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile www.ingenieria.udp.cl (56 2) 676 8125
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW AUDEBERT Vincent
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Xavi Vilajosana Guillen
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Shankar Ramanathan (shankram)
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Fabrice Theoleyre
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Prof. Diego Dujovne
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Georgios Z. Papadopoulos
- Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW Pascal Thubert (pthubert)