Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW

"Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl> Fri, 05 April 2019 12:33 UTC

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From: "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>
Date: Fri, 5 Apr 2019 09:33:09 -0300
Message-ID: <CAH7SZV--KiFJb_XGrBQu1+TsyqHc5j3kJaH-CtfKX4eYe+X8Yg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr>
Cc: "Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja)" <mutaneja@cisco.com>, Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <xvilajosana@uoc.edu>, AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>, "Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>, Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>, "paw@ietf.org" <paw@ietf.org>, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
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All,
     Pascal's question just kept me thinking what a RAW network
would look like. From the meaning of RAW, I think that what we
are looking for is totally the opposite: A predictable behavior
in terms of reliability and delay. If this is not taken into account,
then RAW sounds simple and easy to remember.
     Regards,

                                Diego

Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 09:21, Fabrice Theoleyre <theoleyre@unistra.fr> a
écrit :

> I have a slight preference for RAW.
>
> Fabrice
>
>
> Le 5 avr. 2019 à 14:19, Mukesh Taneja (mutaneja) <mutaneja@cisco.com> a
> écrit :
>
>
> I am for something like – SRAW with S from SPWAN (for Scheduled).
>
> Thanks,
> Mukesh
>
> *From: *Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Xavi Vilajosana Guillen <
> xvilajosana@uoc.edu>
> *Date: *Friday, 5 April 2019 at 5:42 PM
> *To: *AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>
> *Cc: *"Pascal Thubert (pthubert)" <pthubert@cisco.com>om>, Juliusz
> Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>fr>, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>om>,
> "Prof. Diego Dujovne" <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>cl>, "paw@ietf.org" <
> paw@ietf.org>gt;, Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>et>, "Venkatesan, Ganesh" <
> ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>
> Same here. RAW is shorter and easier to spell.
>
> regards
> Xavi
>
> Missatge de AUDEBERT Vincent <vincent.audebert@edf.fr> del dia dv., 5
> d’abr. 2019 a les 14:01:
>
> Hi Pascal, All,
>
> I am in favor of RAW.
>
> Regards
>
> Vincent
>
> <image001.png>
>
> *Vincent AUDEBERT*
> *Research Engineer*
> EDF – R&D Lab Saclay
> MIRE
> 7 Bd Gaspard Monge
> 91120 PALAISEAU
>
> *vincent.audebert@edf.fr <vincent.audebert@edf.fr>*
> Phone : + 33 1 78 19 45 64
> Mobile : + 33 6 14 13 23 22
> <image002.gif>
> Un geste simple pour l'environnement, n'imprimez ce message que si vous en
> avez l'utilité.
>
>
> *De :* Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] *De la part de*
> pthubert@cisco.com
> *Envoyé :* vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:59
> *À :* Prof. Diego Dujovne <diego.dujovne@mail.udp.cl>cl>; Hesham ElBakoury <
> Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
> *Cc :* Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>et>; paw@ietf.org; Juliusz Chroboczek <
> jch@irif.fr>gt;; Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
> *Objet :* Re: [Paw] Renaming: SPAWN vs. RAW
>
> Votes are still open. Do we keep SPAWN or do we jump to RAW.
> What does sound right, a SPAWN or a RAW Network?
>
> All the best,
>
> Pascal
>
> *From:* Paw <paw-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Prof. Diego Dujovne
> *Sent:* vendredi 5 avril 2019 13:51
> *To:* Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com>
> *Cc:* Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>om>; Lou Berger <
> lberger@labn.net>;paw@ietf.org; Venkatesan, Ganesh <
> ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>gt;; Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
> *Subject:* Re: [Paw] Renaming
>
> Pascal,
>            Shall we split this e-mail between the renaming
> topic and the reliability metrics discussion? I think both
> items are really relevant to the group and deserve their
> individual space.
> Regards,
>
>                              Diego Dujovne
>
> Le ven. 5 avr. 2019 à 07:03, Hesham ElBakoury <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei.com
> <Hesham.ElBakoury@huawei..com>> a écrit :
>
> There is a good book on reliability by Michael Tortorella. The book is "*Reliability,
> Maintainability, and Supportability: Best Practices for Systems Engineers*".
> It is available from Wiley.
>
> Hesham
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paw [mailto:paw-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Pascal Thubert
> (pthubert)
> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2019 1:55 AM
> To: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
> Cc: Lou Berger <lberger@labn.net>et>; paw@ietf.org; Venkatesan, Ganesh <
> ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>
> Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>
>
>
> Hello Juliusz:
>
>
>
> Actually the theoretical work has been done a while ago, as  a response to
> your question at the mike when I suggested you dig for MTBF or similar
> (MTTF, MTBE...). We tend to express a network form of MTBF in a number of
> 9s. Like five 9s would indicate that the Mean Successful Transmissions
> Between Errors is 99999. A number of use cases would thrive on 1% loss as
> long as losses are always well spaced so the missing points can be
> recovered. This can be true for an industrial control loop, and false for
> burning a master video. The N 9s are there to make the occurrence of P
> (say, 4) losses in a row very rare, like a probability of 1/10^(N*P). But
> the 9s are for unrelated errors and fail to convey a rare burst of errors
> with a common cause, which is what really hurts. These things happen on
> radios and that's why we are after diverse paths etc...
>
>
>
> There's enough stats for is in
> https://ftp.automationdirect.com/pub/Product%20Reliability%20and%20MTBF.pdf
>  to take us a long way. Our problem is to migrate the concept from a
> product to a sequence of nodes and then to more complex structures. This
> could be refined in an academic paper, I expect that'd be a great topic,
> and then an RFC would summarize that.
>
>
>
> What I'd like to see is an informational RFC that presents wireless
> reliability in a way that can be consumed by the IETF members, and provides
> terminology that can be referred in our specs. You seemed curious about the
> topic; that's quality number one for achieving great results : )
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Pascal
>
>
>
> More links:
>
>
> http://www.bb-elec.com/Learning-Center/All-White-Papers/Fiber/MTBF,-MTTR,-MTTF,-FIT-Explanation-of-Terms/MTBF-MTTR-MTTF-FIT-10262012-pdf.pdf
>
>
> https://books.google.nl/books?id=rNLSBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA171&lpg=PA171&dq=reliability+MTBF+MTBE+papers&source=bl&ots=L7BsInfaO3&sig=ACfU3U0kYd1lGRyRR_aD5AET9LOI8ZfZWg&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwisr-LirLjhAhWPZ1AKHe8yARwQ6AEwA3oECAgQAQ
>
>
>
> https://www.dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability
> <https://www..dfrsolutions.com/blog/the-challenges-of-wireless-reliability>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Juliusz Chroboczek <jch@irif.fr>
>
> > Sent: vendredi 5 avril 2019 01:40
>
> > To: Pascal Thubert (pthubert) <pthubert@cisco.com>
>
> > Cc: Venkatesan, Ganesh <ganesh.venkatesan@intel.com>om>; Lou Berger
>
> > <lberger@labn.net>et>; paw@ietf.org
>
> > Subject: Re: [Paw] Renaming
>
> >
>
> > > We'll also need to provide a definition of reliability and
>
> > > availability and as we discussed, 5nines is probably not the only or
>
> > > even best way to express any of that. Juliusz actually raised the
>
> > > point and I hope he continues on that path and even produces a spec
> for us.
>
> >
>
> > I'm flattered you think so, but I'm pretty sure I'm not competent.
>
> > You'd need someone with more of a background in probability and
> statistics.
>
> >
>
> > -- Juliusz
>
>
>
> --
>
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> --
> DIEGO DUJOVNE
> Profesor Asociado
> Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
> Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
> www.ingenieria.udp.cl
> (56 2) 676 8125
>
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-- 
DIEGO DUJOVNE
Profesor Asociado
Escuela de Informática y Telecomunicaciones
Facultad de Ingeniería - Universidad Diego Portales - Chile
www.ingenieria.udp.cl
(56 2) 676 8125